leicar7 Posted July 7, 2009 Share #1 Posted July 7, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) What would sales look like if Leica were to price the S2 at about $8000?... And make up some of the likely loss by pricing lenses at somewhat higher than initially anticipated? That price is about the retail for the high end EOS camera. My speculation: 1. It would blow away the MF market and be a strong incentive for MF users to look at Leica. 2. It would allow the current R population to participate in the market of this new system. I.e., Leica will acknowledge that the R is dead and that we users have experienced an EOS-analogous moment. 3. It would encourage new people into the Leica reflex digital market. 4. It will not satisfy current anger and disappointment for the current R population vis a vis their extant equipment. But it will allow a significant portion of that population to contemplate participating in the S system. 5. The talk of a "solution" for current R users is bunk. Such talk has been about a camera for R lenses, with no word of hope that Leica would continue to invest in a future R line with new lenses, which is the point of any system exercise anyway, IMHO. Some "camera" coming available some four years, at least, down the line is not a solution. By then, it would constitute a new product line introduction. By then there will be only the most trivial of residual R users to consider marketing to, which Leica doesn't do well anyway. When such a "solution" would finally arrive, they would have to create a new market, to almost the same extent that they face now with the S2. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted July 7, 2009 Posted July 7, 2009 Hi leicar7, Take a look here What If?. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
stunsworth Posted July 7, 2009 Share #2 Posted July 7, 2009 As it's a new system you'll need to buy new lenses. So it doesn't really matter too much how they split the pricing. It's the total price of a body and lens together that's important. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdai Posted July 7, 2009 Share #3 Posted July 7, 2009 What would sales look like if Leica were to price the S2 at about $8000?... And make up some of the likely loss by pricing lenses at somewhat higher than initially anticipated? What's the difference between "a $8000 camera + a $18000 lens" and "a $20000 camera + a $6000 lens"? Ok, let's say Dr. Kaufmann's pocket is deep enough to sustain a $10000 starter kit ... there are still many unanswered questions. I personally would be among those wait-and-watches even in this case. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
leicar7 Posted July 7, 2009 Author Share #4 Posted July 7, 2009 Steve, An EOS moment, which the S2 constitutes for Leica reflex types, implies that, for people to continue to use thru-the-lens Leica systems, they would have to buy new lenses, just like the C types long ago. Some "solution" to arrive at least four years from now, if indeed it ever would, is not a "solution" to anything. Aside from film users, any R lens would have amassed a good few inches of dust. If one finds mating R lenses to a C body satisfactory, go for it. I am not interested in the trade-offs. The point of what I propose it that at a right price, an S2 market could be several times what they conservatively anticipate just among the studio pro crowd and trying to break into the MF market - the markets toward which they are aiming the S2. They could sell to the MF and to the 35mm markets. Every first camera they sell to someone implies some number of lens sales over time, usually several more than one. Leica's words that they intend the S2 price to be "competitive" with MF prices means that there is a certain leeway in pricing the body. So there is no sacred reason to have to price it in the commonly speculated $12,000, or some other such number. So if instead of a $6,000 lens, how about a $7,000 lens. Profit supposedly comes more from lenses than from bodies anyway. So, price the body at or slightly below the break even price, add a few hundred, maybe a thousand to the price of a lens, and we may be looking at a whole differently sized market for this new image-making wonder. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonoslack Posted July 7, 2009 Share #5 Posted July 7, 2009 What would sales look like if Leica were to price the S2 at about $8000?... And make up some of the likely loss by pricing lenses at somewhat higher than initially anticipated? That price is about the retail for the high end EOS camera. I guess they'd go bust . . . but, let's suppose it costs them $7500 to make and market, that means that they would have to sell 10 times as many cameras to make the same profit as they would for selling it at $13,000. There simply aren't 10 times as many people. Niche products (which the S2 is) need decent margins. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
georg Posted July 7, 2009 Share #6 Posted July 7, 2009 The components alone won't be cheap, the 39MP-sensor alone cost about 5k$ in 2006! I don't think they will price it with a "brand" or "pro"-bonus. They said a R10 would have cost about 6k-7k€, let's say +30% for the larger sensor and optics/mechanics so we end up with about 10k€, that are about 14k$ - I think we can assume 20k$ with the 70mm-lens, but as usual, €-countries will have to pay extra to compensate the weak dollar. Well, we will finally know more by the end of the month :-) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wildlightphoto Posted July 7, 2009 Share #7 Posted July 7, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) What would sales look like if Leica were to price the S2 at about $8000? I'd look into getting my f/6.8 Telyts modified to fit. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guy_mancuso Posted July 7, 2009 Share #8 Posted July 7, 2009 My theory on this has been . Let people get in the door since it is a new system , it is a system that is only tied to Leica lenses which gives the buyer no options to go anywhere . Most folks would buy a body and lens and eventually get to about 4 lenses in there kit . I would call that one lens above average for MF. So treat this like they do in grocery store use the loss leader approach . Let people get in and capture the market, first it is going to take time to get the system running at full speed. It is going to take time for people to trust the system. It also is going to take time for Leica to fully service it from every aspect from loaner, rentals, software and hardware sales and service. More so than any other system there is no real backup option. So for Pro's we either have to look at 2 units or have a system on standby like a canon or so which right there is a royal PITA. We also have to wait for some lenses to hit the streets and we have to by new. If you have not caught the magic word here it is time and that commodity or lack of it should come in and help the buyer get in and get everything settled in. My pricing structure is not what Leica would want to hear but I think it is the best solution to get people in and that is the key here . It does NO ONE any good to overprice this and it sits and only a handful of people with real money buy it and it never get's developed properly . It needs to get in my hands and other Pro's around the globe so it can be given a fair shot in the arm for everyone to go buy. People still go along with what Pro's buy in many ways and with many products being produced. Leica specifically has said in there marketing Pro level across the board. Well you need to get it in Pro's hands and not just the 35mm crowd you need to convince the MF user to switch and that will take good pricing to do that. I think the body and a one lens get should actually be higher than a D3x the most expensive DSLR and just less than a good basic MF kit. Yes i am suggesting undercutting the market on the kit. With that we still have several lenses to buy and at a normal cost. Leica will still get there money overall but it will take the buyer time to get the kit together as he or she progresses with it, so reality is leica still gets the revenue they expect but just dragged out a little longer as buyers build there kits. Now that may mean slightly higher lens prices but let's face the real fact . They have you buy the b---l's to get there lenses and you have no where else to go to supplement the system. than you have all the accessories. Even if they did not slightly raise the lens and accessories they still have you tied in at 100 percent to the Leica line. This is how you get people in the door and still make revenue and exactly what i said to them. Let us in first, you are going nowhere if you can't let us in the door than the door closes right behind you. The kit IMHO should be for a Body, lens and two batteries 12k-15k US. That will get people in and the sweet spot. I would consider that a deal and than i would work my butt off to get those other 4 or 5 lenses i would need. May take time but I would get there and so would almost everyone else. 3 is the average ,4 is needed and 5 is golden on MF lenses. leica has a real opportunity to penetrate the market , how they do that will be very important and like a space ship returning to earth either it will skip off back into space or actually penetrate the surface. And don't lose sight of Hassy and Phase. Hassy has already proven it will slash prices by the thousands in a day just to get people in. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mgcd Posted July 7, 2009 Share #9 Posted July 7, 2009 This is what I and others, including Jamie, have been saying about positioning the S2 at around the same price point as the D3x. This would be the right way to go IMO. As I said on another thread though, I'm not holding my breath... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guy_mancuso Posted July 7, 2009 Share #10 Posted July 7, 2009 This is what I and others, including Jamie, have been saying about positioning the S2 at around the same price point as the D3x. This would be the right way to go IMO. As I said on another thread though, I'm not holding my breath... Me neither. I just think this maybe the right way to go. A good price will get fence sitters to move Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dfarkas Posted July 8, 2009 Share #11 Posted July 8, 2009 Me neither. I just think this maybe the right way to go. A good price will get fence sitters to move I think the plan (Leica's) is that once the system is out there, in use, the fence sitters might move anyway. Providing the S2 brings everything it promises to the table (IQ, ease-of-use, ergonomics, size, weather-sealing, speed, etc), I think it becomes harder and harder to resist. I mean, let's face it... If the camera is super-sexy at 15K, it doesn't exactly get ugly by 20K. David Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guy_mancuso Posted July 8, 2009 Share #12 Posted July 8, 2009 Sorry yes it does by a long shot and i don't buy sex. David sorry pretty means crap to me. You can sell that to the millionaires, not the working class. Seriously if Leica thinks selling something sexy will bring more revenue than stick with the Hermes label Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dfarkas Posted July 8, 2009 Share #13 Posted July 8, 2009 Sorry yes it does by a long shot and i don't buy sex. David sorry pretty means crap to me. You can sell that to the millionaires, not the working class. Seriously if Leica thinks selling something sexy will bring more revenue than stick with the Hermes label I meant the attractiveness of the feature-set and value proposition, not the physical appearance of the camera (as in "attractively priced"). David Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
c6gowin Posted July 8, 2009 Share #14 Posted July 8, 2009 ...I mean, let's face it... If the camera is super-sexy at 15K, it doesn't exactly get ugly by 20K. :)David It may not get ugly by $20k, but it will be considerably less attractive than $15k. I'm with Guy on this one. For me, there is a big difference between $15k and $20. Its as much a mental thing as it is a financial one - possibly the difference between buying an S2 or not. And, David you know how much I want an S2. Mark Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mgcd Posted July 8, 2009 Share #15 Posted July 8, 2009 I meant the attractiveness of the feature-set and value proposition, not the physical appearance of the camera (as in "attractively priced"). David David - Attractively priced, in my book, would be no more than $8,000 - $9,000... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
c6gowin Posted July 8, 2009 Share #16 Posted July 8, 2009 Fortunately, we won't have to wait much longer for Leica to announce the real prices of the S2 and initial set of lenses. I've been anxiously waiting since David's first blog entries from Photokina last year, so I can wait a few more weeks. Mark Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdai Posted July 8, 2009 Share #17 Posted July 8, 2009 In Leica's book, "attractively priced" really just means anything they want to charge and eventually you'll have to pay (with a sigh of relief). In a perfect world of the gearheads, it would mean that everything is on another person/organization's tab ... such as flying a F-22, driving a F-60 or dropping a MOAB out of the blue. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guy_mancuso Posted July 8, 2009 Share #18 Posted July 8, 2009 I meant the attractiveness of the feature-set and value proposition, not the physical appearance of the camera (as in "attractively priced"). David I know but I hope Leica is not thinking this. LOL Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andreas_thomsen Posted July 8, 2009 Share #19 Posted July 8, 2009 leica needs new customers like no one else. to get new customers they have to brillant and agressive. i could think about an early adopter bonus - the first 500/1000/1500 who jump on the S2/+one lens pay just half the price. that strategie would keep the high price positioning leica always had. cheers andy p.s. they should give to the top professionels (they are the key to success) around the world the S2 for free. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riccis Posted July 8, 2009 Share #20 Posted July 8, 2009 p.s. they should give to the top professionels (they are the key to success) around the world the S2 for free. I agree... Salgado should have the first set out of the factory to use on his current Genesis project as he is now a digital shooter (using Canon 1Ds Mark III) and has expressed interest/curiosity on the S2 in recent talks... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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