innerimager Posted November 11, 2006 Share #1 Posted November 11, 2006 Advertisement (gone after registration) What's New 2006 You'll see Michael's explanation on Luminous Landscape. I'm speechless. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted November 11, 2006 Posted November 11, 2006 Hi innerimager, Take a look here Leica knew and asked reviewers to hold back . I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
innerimager Posted November 11, 2006 Author Share #2 Posted November 11, 2006 Speech is back. I'm thinking about the reviewers more than Leica at this time. Michael- I respect your letting the world know, but not 1. that you in fact held back in the first place. You should have not published your review at all until this was settled. "The best digital camera" can't handle IR? Sean- You need to let us know for sure where you are at concerning this. It seems unlikely that you could never have run into the IR issue, but that's your claim. In light of Michael's revelation, you need to comment on whether in fact you also agreed to hold info back. ....Peter Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hyper67 Posted November 11, 2006 Share #3 Posted November 11, 2006 I agree - that he should have not have published the review. Even though I respect his site and commentary I feel that he should have held back.....like I said in a previous post take everything you read with a pinch of salt....This would mean that Leica has been trying to solve this problem for some time now and is not something that inadvertently appeared at the last minute. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimF Posted November 11, 2006 Share #4 Posted November 11, 2006 Thanks to a person here who provided a link (sorry, can't recall who it was), some at least of us read Michael's review before it went 'live'. The green blobs issue was mentioned (as Michael alludes to in his comments linked to above), and a picture, taken in a car park, was published and subsequently removed from the review. Reading the various threads on this subject does suggest to me that certain people appear to derive immense pleasure from screaming at Leica on this. Yes, there are problems still to be sorted. Yes, Leica know about them, and I'm sure, are doing their utmost to resolve them. Yes, its fair to make constructive critical comments about why these weren't resolved before release. Maybe, as has been suggested elsewhere, the marketing people bounced the engineers into a release before they (the engineers) would have liked. However, if the release date had been further set back, its a sure fire thing that some of those complaining the loudest (as opposed to those looking for interim solutions) would have been screaming about the delay in releasing the camera. Don't believe it? Just look at what happened with the DMR (and the Nikon D2X for that matter). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnbuckley Posted November 11, 2006 Share #5 Posted November 11, 2006 Tim: I agree with you complete. Leica's options were 1) release camera, delay camera. Either way they'd get pasted. Making a digital M is hard. I love my M8, and have faith that Leica will fix the problems. More faith than others, it would appear. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
reddawn Posted November 11, 2006 Share #6 Posted November 11, 2006 Hi This is indeed very surprisingly. IF michael and Sean both held back information on the problems as requested by Leica, then their reviews are no longer objective. We make purchasing decisions and considerations based on their reviews and if they are only saying what Leica wants them to say, then they are seriously MISLEADING readers. Michael's LL site has been one of my favourites since 2001 - in fact, I bought my first Canon D30 DSLR based on his assessment of its image quality. And I'm a subscriber of Sean's site as well. I enjoyed the articles from both sites. I feel MR should have just reported the problems as he sees them. Isn't that what his articles are about, as he often says, "calling it as he sees them"? And I feel there's no need for him to take a cheap shot at Phil Askey in that explanation he gave. Sean, were u also asked to hold back comments on the problems as well? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
reddawn Posted November 11, 2006 Share #7 Posted November 11, 2006 Advertisement (gone after registration) Tim: I agree with you complete. Leica's options were 1) release camera, delay camera. Either way they'd get pasted. Making a digital M is hard. I love my M8, and have faith that Leica will fix the problems. More faith than others, it would appear. Leica is supposed to be different from the Japanese "electronic companies", as a poster here called them. They are supposed to be held to a higher standardl, epitomising the highest quality in photographic equipment. They should have delayed shipping to work out the problems. Releasing before fixing makes them no different from all the other companies in the world today - it shows a lack of regard for quality. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrgeoffrion Posted November 11, 2006 Share #8 Posted November 11, 2006 I have to say I'm very surprised that no one has suggested that the CEO step down. He may not be responsible, but he is certainly accountable. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
erg Posted November 11, 2006 Share #9 Posted November 11, 2006 Tim: I agree with you complete. Leica's options were 1) release camera, delay camera. Either way they'd get pasted. Making a digital M is hard. I love my M8, and have faith that Leica will fix the problems. More faith than others, it would appear. Number 1 is definitely my choice. I'm having a good time with my M8 and enjoying B&W photos again. Furthermore, most of my colorphotos don't show one of the known issues. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
marknorton Posted November 11, 2006 Share #10 Posted November 11, 2006 I have to say I'm very surprised that no one has suggested that the CEO step down. He may not be responsible, but he is certainly accountable. Please... We certainly wouldn't want that. Dr Josef Spichtig and his team have rescued Leica from almost certain oblivion and Dr Andreas Kaufmann, in investing in Leica through ACM Projektentwicklung, has provided the funding without which the Leica M8 would never have seen the light of day. We don't need anyone to resign - what's the point of that, this is not Enron, Ford or any morally bankrupt US corporation you care to name. We just need Leica to be open and honest about the causes of the problems with the Leica M8 and their plans for fixing them. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
erg Posted November 11, 2006 Share #11 Posted November 11, 2006 ...We make purchasing decisions and considerations based on their reviews and if they are only saying what Leica wants them to say, then they are seriously MISLEADING readers.... There is also the possibility that Leica was misleading the reviewers about the status of the final M8 release. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
reddawn Posted November 11, 2006 Share #12 Posted November 11, 2006 There is also the possibility that Leica was misleading the reviewers about the status of the final M8 release. It doesn't really matter whether the final release was ready for prime time. They were given what were deemed production level cameras. Remember the anticipation in the heady days when we talked about the "golden" firmware waiting to be loaded and given to reviewers? If the reviewers discovered problems with these "production level" cameras then they should report it. If they don't and write glowing reviews, then the articles are nothing more than advertorials. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
devils-advocate Posted November 11, 2006 Share #13 Posted November 11, 2006 Disclosure: I am a personal friend of Michael. In his defence (and he has no idea I am writing this), he is very cognizant of the power of sites like his to have significant impacts on the launch of new equipment. The responsibility this engenders cuts both ways -- we all know that lots of cutting-edge digital cameras have had teething pains. It's profoundly unfair to the industry, and end-users as well, to decry a new product as defective or inferior without being certain that this is truly the case in the hands of the end-users. The images Michael produced with his test M8 *were superb*. Especially in B&W, they were the best digital images I have seen (at least as printed on inkjet). The review was totally honest in this conclusion. Before anyone can accue Michael of misleading anyone or being less than objective, please consider that he laid out his own $$$, at fair market value, to buy the very camera he was testing. He's in the same position as every other photographer who mostly loves this machine. Let's give Leica a little time to fix the problem - since that's the result we all want. If they do that, I think we can pretty much all find it in our hearts to forgive them that the camera wasn't perfect out of the box. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
reddawn Posted November 11, 2006 Share #14 Posted November 11, 2006 Hi just to clarify, I don't have anything personal against Sean or MR. I've recommended Sean's site to many pple, on various forums, and like I've said, I've been reading LL and MR's writing since 2001 when he wrote that infamous article stating that the D30 produces an output that matches scanned 35mm film. I bought the Canon D30 based on his writings and started down the digital path. But I'm really quite disappointed to find out that he withheld information about the problems on request from Leica and proceed to call the M8 one of the best digital camera. It's brave of him to admit this, but it's still so wrong....and Sean mentioned in another thread he had helped MR proof read his article. So does it mean Sean knew about the problems too? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
blovitch Posted November 11, 2006 Share #15 Posted November 11, 2006 This is a very sad state of affairs. Releasing a knowingly faulty device to an unsuspecting and brand loyal customer base is extremely foolish. It defies logic....Shall we launch it a month late, or sell it now then deal with a recall (along with associated expenditure) and hugely damaging press. I suspect that if this story is true (as it appears to be) then Leica have simply ridden rough shod over the good will than many of us have for the company in the interests of meeting a deadline. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sergiolov Posted November 11, 2006 Share #16 Posted November 11, 2006 M8 launch has been in reality ANTICIPATED. The programmed distribution date was, as confirmed by the Leica USA rep, end of november, and this is the expected date still valid for many cowntries. In Italy, eg, no dealer has a single camera, not even a demo. So, the question is wy they anticipated, knowing the issues. Sergio Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eoin Posted November 11, 2006 Share #17 Posted November 11, 2006 The more I'm reading the more I'm suprised, not only at leica but also to the reactions of some who seem to be blinded by loyality to the company or the product. Leaving aside the congratulations leica deserve for attempting to produce a digital M series, the fact remains that the released a product it knew to be faulty. Further more they conspired to cover up this fault prior to launch as suggested in the link in the OP post and we all remember the embargo on images from the M8 before launch. It's sad to say that Leica has joined the ever increasing number of companies who seem to disregard us as customers who deserve the best quality product for the premium price we pay but rather focus on corporate image viewed form it's shareholder's perspective or negative press for having to delay the inital launch due to technical reasons. I wonder how many of you who have already paid for your M8 will feel when leica give you a fix for the various issues, but later issue a version M8.1 which will preform just that slight bit better than your fixed model?. Your precious M8 will always be refered to as "the one with the purple blacks and banding issues". What ever Leica do now it will always be a compromise to the later "production corrected" M8. I'm not here to bash leica, I had high hopes for the M8, still do, but from my perspective I think customers should come first, but many of your are "blinded by your love" of leica to see that you've been well and truly been "taken for a ride". Shame on you Leica, you used to stand for excellence, let's see if that's the case when you fix the production version of the M8 will you recall the rest?. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonoslack Posted November 11, 2006 Share #18 Posted November 11, 2006 Hi There - as an experienced buyer of 'unfinished' cameras: Kodak 14n, Nikon D2x, Nikon D200; and as a faithful installer of firmware upgrades, it seems to me that Leica were in an intolerable position - don't ship - but in the knowledge that cameras are never really 'finished' - or ship, with the intention of fixing most of the issues afterwards (as happened with the above cameras). I spent a good time beta testing firmware for the Kodak 14n / SLRn, and know what a slippery business it all is. What makes Leica stand out in this respect, is that it only took them 5 days to 'fess up about it. I don't believe than any cameras are really released as a 'finished item' and if you don't know that you are being a beta tester by being an early adopter, then you certainly should. (Especially if you're spending that much). As for MR and SR - I'm sure that their reviews were honest up to a point, I can't imagine why they would go all gooey over the camera if they didn't believe it, especially if they knew about the flaws. I've plonked down my dosh - I have my M8, with it's flaws and it's virtues (and don't imagine it doesn't have fabulous virtues). I'll work on work-arounds until it's fixed (and they aren't hard). But I'm not going to get my blood pressure up over a number of mistakes by well intentioned people. Wouldn't you rather take photos too ? kind regards jono slack jonathan slack - photographs Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
reddawn Posted November 11, 2006 Share #19 Posted November 11, 2006 Wouldn't you rather take photos too ? yes, but not with a camera known to have show shopping faults for my needs.... I rather Leica waits to fix the problems (at least the obvious show stopping ones) then release the M8. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jojet Posted November 11, 2006 Share #20 Posted November 11, 2006 So perhaps this was the main reason you were not allowed to shoot with the M8 at the photokina with your own SD card. Leica knew from the beginning. At the Photokina it was a pre-release firmware story but now I figure they already knew it amd just gave a twist to the fact that you were not allowed to shoot with you're own sd card. Anyway I think it is a shame to launch such a camera at such a price and even not telling the problem's you already discvored at the launch. I'm also surprised how some people react whom already received their m8. It's look the are happy with the body and thake the (not satisfying) work arounds for granted. I know we all waited a long time for the m8 (and I'll have to wait longer for saving the money : -) ) but I can't imagine that people accept a camera with such defectives at such a price and say they are glad they have the camera. For such a price you want a camera that works flawlessly, anyway I want that. Even with mine cheaper 5D I want that (and it does). I don't want bashing leica but with this product and their behaviour they are calling it over themselves. I certainly hope the will fix it and costless and perhaps when I've saved the money I can buy the M8 mark 2 (or M8-S) next year. john Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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