John Maio Posted November 9, 2006 Share #21 Posted November 9, 2006 Advertisement (gone after registration) I had to see for myself so today, I put together this thread: http://www.leica-camera-user.com/digital-forum/8926-could-use-some-help-here.html So far, I've canceled an order I had for a new, coded 28mm ASPH f/2.8 and plan to visit my local dealer in the morning to set a course of action which could very well include returning the 3-day old camera for a refund. Money talks and when the dealers apply collective pressure, maybe then Leica will officially respond. Call it "tough love", but I need a response - now. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted November 9, 2006 Posted November 9, 2006 Hi John Maio, Take a look here Request to Solms - an official statement please. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
davidada Posted November 9, 2006 Share #22 Posted November 9, 2006 Found a quick fix - shoot in black and white!! Seriously though i switched to mono chrome and the results are really great, a very film like tonality and structure even at 2500 iso and at 640 it just look superb. So thats where I am until the color fixes Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gareth_c Posted November 9, 2006 Share #23 Posted November 9, 2006 double post - sorry Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gareth_c Posted November 9, 2006 Share #24 Posted November 9, 2006 Found a quick fix - shoot in black and white!!Seriously though i switched to mono chrome and the results are really great, a very film like tonality and structure even at 2500 iso and at 640 it just look superb. So thats where I am until the color fixes LOL! Thats not really a fix though is it? People aren't denying the quality of BW shots. What if you are on a paying job this week? 'Sorry, didn't realise you wanted them in colour'! I guess the views at Leica HQ will also differ .... it realy must be a nightmare for them .. damn difficult .. to get out of this alive! People (leica newbies even) are rarely going to spend $5000 without looking around or already being active camera users. Take a look around the web tonight, most forums I have taken a quick look at are full of this 'news'. So, leica might not be shouting from the rooftops but the rumours are spreading and chinese whispers are always damaging. If I felt that leica were on side with this I would support them. When a friend called me earlier to discuss his order (he's never used any leica kit) I didn't know what to say. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
woodyspedden Posted November 9, 2006 Share #25 Posted November 9, 2006 I like to simply look at the practical side of this. No matter how good the M8 and its associated lenses may be, the banding and the magenta cast relegates it to a nice contrasty light camera. If you read these threads over the past three days you will see the temperature going up exponentially with time. Leica must come out with a stabilizing, reassuring statement which doesn't need to completely cover the solution immediately. M8 owners need to know that Leica admits there is a problem, is sorry it happened, has a rational plan to solve it and will keep us updated on progress. If they don't do this immediately there will be every response from customers from lawsuits to demanding their money back etc. The class action lawyers in San Diego could (and probably will) have a field day with this. Come on Leica. Buy yourselves some time and good will by coming clean. Then we can all go back to shooting sunny day landscapes with this (mostly) great camera until the final solutions are in place. Woody Spedden Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gareth_c Posted November 9, 2006 Share #26 Posted November 9, 2006 Yes, as I posted previously I think that is a legitimate concern. And none of us want that. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
vic vic Posted November 9, 2006 Share #27 Posted November 9, 2006 Advertisement (gone after registration) j.borger... ya - of course thinking twice is important but so is thinking twice very fast is important... just a little strategic game - for leica, for free cause i love them anyway (i mean the film camera).... there is such a thing called rumors industry... if u want to check out what will be the reaction to something that is ok of course... but dont send sean reid as one who will bring it. it almost equals the official statement and the effect of checking and smelling around is lost... u expose yourslef too much that way... there are other ways to ckeck various reactions to various statements in order to biuld up a proper official reaction. rumor industry techniques are most needed, and in the field of leica users and the leica forum it is very eassy to accomplish. people will react very enthusiastically to rumors spread about m8 almost like teenager girls pop-star rumors, and u will stay clean and neutral which is very important. now, to make a reaction to people that really care about leica and really intrested about m8... it is eassyy... all the need at first stage is your attention, nothing more. so u simply can say.. "we investigate the issue very seriously and we will come up very soon with our findings". and now honestly.... u r the company that should not put yourself in this situation. and if it happened, no problems.. we are all human beings...... u want the best reaction..... remember - people here (most of them) are loyal people... some of them are older guys who love u for decdes on and on, some of them are young guys who dreamed about leica and their dream come true etc... u r at "home" with your customers simply because u have reputation. with your reputation u can allow yourself to come out nicely and say.. ladies and gentelmans , we have some problems but we will sort out and we will fix the stuff, or we will work on it and it may take some time but no worries. it is a new digi camera but we will gain all the needed knowledge very very soon... really no wories... what is my other choice - there is no real competitions to leica m8 so u r not in that great tension. tell them those things in a voice tones of freindship.... and u will keep on and on with the superb reputation u have with film cameras. u will not put in risk your reputation as it seems now in the case of sending cameras with problems, giving unsutisfactory solutions etc etc... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guy_mancuso Posted November 9, 2006 Share #28 Posted November 9, 2006 The only true and workable solution to satisfy there customers is to replace the IR protective glass, PERIOD. Filters and such will not cut it. First we should really not have to put out more money for them and coding the lenses makes absolutely no sense to me in this statement that Sean has relayed to us. I should be over the moon. I have mine coming Fed-X in the morning. i sold my DMR for a low price and bought many thousands of dollars in glass and acessories and really set myself up really nice with 9 lenses to see what i liked and what does not work for me, been offered another lens to buy at a good price and the scary part is i am not alone here , there are many of us here on this board and throughout the world in antcipation of there arrival. Come on guys this is like having another child for some of us. i normally don't get excited about such purchases and i bought so many things photographically i am immune to excitement on a new purchase. This was one product that had me sold hook line and sinker and this comes from a Leica digital user of the DMR which I love so much and thought gee a DMR in a tiny package , how freaking cool this will be. needless to say the disapointment is rampant and our bubble burst. I know the camera will work awesome in many places but having limits is not what we need on a limited RF system to begin with. So my friends i will go out tonight with my bride and eat my butt off and slouch down a few heavy cocktails and try to enjoy the evening. I can deal with the problem but the solution suggested is unacceptable and not sure what Leica really thinks. Because ladies and gentleman we know what black looks like, and in bad english it ain't purple. Good Night folks ,let's hope the morning brings better news than this My respect to the board and it's members that my attitude tonight is just not up to snuff so please pardon the down attitude and frustration. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
trs Posted November 9, 2006 Share #29 Posted November 9, 2006 What did we get ourselves into. I just picked up mine today. I was ready to cancel then I thought I should at least give it a try. I really hope they will take care of their customers. It's ony way to survive in any business. But, reading the statement Sean relayed, it is very alarming. -tanka Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnastovall Posted November 9, 2006 Share #30 Posted November 9, 2006 I to hope Leica gets some serious offical statements out on their website. I just put an order for an M8 which had a December 7th delivery date on hold and had planed in the next two weeks to lay out about 7K on new M lenses which I'm not going to do until I know just were Leica really is going. I've waited for several years for a digital M and didn't think they could be so blind sided by these issues. I really find the banding very troubling as it strikes to the heart of the kind of late night street shooting I had planed to do with an M8 and Noctilux. So for now I'll continue that project with my Canon 5D and the 50/1.0L. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mat_mcdermott Posted November 9, 2006 Share #31 Posted November 9, 2006 I do hope Leica takes action on this. I didn't preorder an M8 at least in part because I didn't want to be pay to be a beta tester. It seems my apprehension was warranted. When I handled the camera a couple of weeks ago in New York I got goosebumps. It felt like everything I've wanted in a digital since digital cameras were little more than curiosities, in short like a Leica and not some computer/camera hybrid on steroids. The initial reviews were stellar, but nonetheless some serious image-quality problems snuck through. I realise I'm not really adding anything new to this discussion other than adding my name to the list of loyal Leica customers who really wants to buy an M8, who will very willingly drop $5000+ for a digital M plus new lenses to make up for the smaller sensor. The thing is for that price, and to maintain Leica's reputation for absolute quality and craftsmanship, the M8 really does have to be as near to perfect as a product can be. A screw-on IR filter would be an acceptable work-around only if another solution is in the works. If the management of Leica thinks otherwise, they've got a potential brand-killing problem on their hands. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sean_reid Posted November 9, 2006 Share #32 Posted November 9, 2006 . but dont send sean reid as one who will bring it.... No one sent me Victor. I requested information from Leica and they gave it to me which is exactly what they should have done. Cheers, Sean Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MP3 Posted November 9, 2006 Share #33 Posted November 9, 2006 'Chinese whispers' ?? Being an M8 owner now with more than 300 shots. I'm anticipating patiently for Leica's response. I simply enjoy taking pictures with it. Cheers Matthew Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gogopix Posted November 9, 2006 Share #34 Posted November 9, 2006 i have an old saying " be approximately right and not precisely wrong" How many pros acknowledge that they have 'maybe 10% keepers at best.." so Leica has problems, but it sounds like the pros as a class openly admit that they have 90% error rate seems Leica's is well above that. I would also like to see some of the statements like "I get better pix out of my XXX" substantiated. When senior members of the community review and test, and show really great results,and the nay sayers wring their hands over '.. geee I really don't want to lose out on that great camera but boy I am nervous about ..." When Horowitz gave a performance, he dropped a lot of notes. In the Ms Whatever contest we hear Miss Podunk play the same piece flawlessly. These are facts, what is wrong with this? Why is Horowitz GREAT and Ms Podunk forgetable? The fact is at the top end of quality one looks at the overall performance. The images I have seen (and now produce) are pretty darned good, and have LIFE! For every 'banding' image I will bet there are 10 cut feet, cut heads. poles out of heads, blurred or out of focus shots that we all throw away. I will take the occasional hiccup from Leica as I take the occasional dropped note from Horowitz. In fact, except for the fact that the photog knows what was black, the magenta images still beat the pants off the Cannikon flat images that abound in the industry. What is risk here in the grumbling? The mediocritzation of the camara industry. Without the Leicas and Zeisses and Rollei's etc, hell you might as well mount post cards! (He, now steps off soap box, views a few DMR, M8 and Phase back images, and says, yup, its worth the effort") He also puts up the mortar shield :-) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
eronald Posted November 9, 2006 Share #35 Posted November 9, 2006 i have an old saying " be approximately right and not precisely wrong" In fact, except for the fact that the photog knows what was black, the magenta images still beat the pants off the Cannikon flat images that abound in the industry. What is risk here in the grumbling? The mediocritzation of the camara industry. Without the Leicas and Zeisses and Rollei's etc, hell you might as well mount post cards! (He, now steps off soap box, views a few DMR, M8 and Phase back images, and says, yup, its worth the effort") He also puts up the mortar shield :-) The M8 as it stands is a nice toy - the real point is reliability. Sure, it's a fast, light robust toy, but still a toy - you don't know until you press the button whether it will fire or lock up, you don't know until you get home whether the "electronic film" is ok or ruined. Edmund Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
vic vic Posted November 9, 2006 Share #36 Posted November 9, 2006 No one sent me Victor. I requested information from Leica and they gave it to me which is exactly what they should have done. Cheers, Sean hi sean.... sean - read carefully what u say.... as a person who knows a thing or two about marketing/lebeling/public-relations, this is the way i read it... : no one sent me = at the moment leica doesnt even reacted to their concerned and loyal customers. it is sean who asked them to say something, they themeselves had no intention to say anything. now, if it is true, then they still make great "public relation" mistake.... why, sean u r not just another member here... u know that very well, and leica people must know it too.... u almost equal to official statement, wether u r official or not. it is the way the public percepts u... so what u have done is neither a real official statement nor a rumor... big mistake. not yours and not christians i believe... it is not your job to be public relation or lebeling strategist, so no blame on u or on person who gave u the messege. now, i dont even know if that is a blame of public strategists in leica, cause i know that in many cases, proffesional strategists solutions are not always applied by HQs of the company especialy when they are under pressure (they tendency for mistakes is greater). should i keep on with my analyzes???? i will not.... i love leica too much, even if they made mistake, and not prefect product once or twice... as far as it doesnt goes to habit i, and i belive other loayal costumers of leica will forgive leica for mistakes and for this snow-ball that lost control. now sean... im not angry at all, cause i dont have this camera on order yet... i will not order this camera untill i will finaly sort out everything about the medium format digital that im waiting and it will not happen untill a couple of months more cause the kit i want is still under development stages. so i really hope that untill then leica will solve those problems. what im disapointed about is that leica company doesnot behaves like a real aristokrat that they are and should be. now i do realize that unlike some high-end medium format manufacturer, leica cannot go too personal with their customers, of course not... but not "ignore" there concerns. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexr Posted November 9, 2006 Share #37 Posted November 9, 2006 But Victor, it is precisely because only 10% of what we shoot are keepers that we need every single shot to be perfect. Just imagine, if the one perfect keeper, career-maker of an image, had banding and purple blacks. Disaster! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
brunom Posted November 9, 2006 Share #38 Posted November 9, 2006 This is the official Leica forum, and as such, Leica should be using it to make direct contact with their customers and prospective customers. With all due respect to Sean [ who is blameless and answerable to no-one - after all he was trying to help us! ] Leica should have issued any statement they wished to publish, via Andreas or direct to us on this forum. Whether or not Leica perceive this as a fault or as a glich fixable by filters etc - they have to realise that the vast majority [ so it seems] of their customers do feel it is a big problem, and therefore Leica should understand that this problem needs to be addressed and fixed fairly quickly, and with their customers being kept in the picture about what is happening - if not they also have to realise that without their customers they are nothing. Bruno Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
vic vic Posted November 9, 2006 Share #39 Posted November 9, 2006 alex... of course i agree with u... i dont say that leica should be forgiven for purple blacks... i say that if they made product that i will not use at all in proffesional work i can forgive for it as much as i beleive and keep on hoping that they will come up with some solution - real solution. to use this camera or not to use for my pro work to make career images is my choice, but to build a camera it is leicas responisbility... bruno... very true... i already suggested here that leica needs to gain some time... their first reaction should come not as a solution description but as comunicative act that will gain some time to them... they desperatly need the time now with their existing m8 customers and their potential m8 customers... this is the most important thing here.... the fuck of the camera will not be soved over night, but the fuck in "public relation" can and should be solved overnight Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
msr Posted November 9, 2006 Share #40 Posted November 9, 2006 ... this is the most important thing here.... the fuck of the camera will not be soved over night, but the fuck in "public relation" can and should be solved overnight I'm not sure if English is your native language or not. But in either case I would like to suggest that you use a vocabulary that is more appropriate to a public forum. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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