M8 Samples Revisited

[fotografr]

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I still think the ISO 160 shot looks excellent. Looking again at the ISO 1250 image, I now see things I didn't notice previously. Processed from original DNG in CS2 using ACR 3.6 instead of the embedded profile.

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[Samir Jahjah]

Interesting...so it does not only affect bright light sources in a dark environment. That kind of shot is very common.

[newyorkone]

That kind of shot is not common.

 

When would you purposely choose ISO 1250 or ISO 2500 when ISO 160 renders a perfectly good image (as the first image clearly illustrates)? Never. Tests are sometimes just that...tests and do not reflect real life scenarios.

 

There are issues that do appear to be real world scenarios but this scene is not one of them.

[booggerg]

A common scenario would be walking down a city street at night, taking pictures of passer bys or your friends. You are using your flash and dragging your shutter to get a high energy effect. Meanwhile, traffic in one direction are zooming by and their headlights are causing these annoying banding...

[Samir Jahjah]

That kind of shot is not common.

 

When would you purposely choose ISO 1250 or ISO 2500 when ISO 160 or 320 renders a perfectly good image? Never. Tests are sometimes just that...tests and do not reflect real life scenarios.

 

There are issues that do appear to be real world scenarios but this scene is not one of them.

 

 

Well if you are indoor, in a cafe or a restaurant, or a church, with a window behind your subject that you want sharp: instead of shooting 1/8 or 1/30sec at 400 ISO you set it up to 800 or more... quite common, and I have not hesitated to push ISO with my 5D. One advantage of digital camera is to be able to use ISO as the third control variable (after speed and aperture), and what this example shows is that the use of that third variable will be limited.

[fotografr]

That kind of shot is not common. There are issues that do appear to be real world scenarios but this scene is not one of them.

 

Perhaps one might want to be able to use a fast shutter speed and small aperture. That's not at all out of the question.

[mitchell]

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I'm curious why there isn't more difference in the DOF in these two shots if the ISO is so different? Or am I missing something?

 

Just wondering.

 

Best,

 

Mitchell

[newyorkone]

I'm fully aware of the reasons for faster speeds and smaller apertures but I am talking specifically about this series of images and question how really useful they are in judging how much of a problem the banding issue is.

 

The ISO 1250 shot clearly shows that the aperture was held constant (same DOF), so the shutter was probably changed. Also, the ISO 1250 photo actually looks to be slightly overexposed.

 

In this particular situation and this situation only, to be perfectly clear, ISO 160 or 320 would have nailed this shot and most photographers would not have thought to bump up the ISO. That's all I am saying.

[booggerg]

Steve, the point here is that there is banding at 1250. It doesn't matter if the scenario isn't ideal.

[Guest Bernd Banken]

in streetfotography, those shots are common:

 

see the bulblight, no chance to escape in that framing:

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[carstenw]

Well if you are indoor, in a cafe or a restaurant, or a church, with a window behind your subject that you want sharp: instead of shooting 1/8 or 1/30sec at 400 ISO you set it up to 800 or more... quite common, and I have not hesitated to push ISO with my 5D. One advantage of digital camera is to be able to use ISO as the third control variable (after speed and aperture), and what this example shows is that the use of that third variable will be limited.

 

I tried something very similar to this when I got my M8, having read all the streaking-posts. I walked back from my favorite cafe, taking pictures of every half-interesting shop window I could find, making sure to include the spotlights while exposing for the for-sale items. Of the perhaps 15 shots I took in this manner, 1 or 2 had the problem, and I was really trying. Normally I would be trying to crop out strong light-sources. I will be interested to hear what you find when your M8 arrives, even if you delay.

[carstenw]

I'm curious why there isn't more difference in the DOF in these two shots if the ISO is so different? Or am I missing something?

 

I thought about that too, but the shutterspeed is the better variable here, which you wouldn't see unless the subject moved fast.

[carstenw]

in streetfotography, those shots are common:

 

see the bulblight, no chance to escape in that framing:

 

It doesn't happen all the time, just sometimes. I couldn't find any logic yet in my testing. I got 1 or 2 streaks in about 15 shots.

[fotografr]

"Also, the ISO 1250 photo actually looks to be slightly overexposed."

 

These are DNG files, opened in the CS2 RAW converter. If one looks overexposed, it is more likely because you are on a Mac and I'm on a PC.

 

Additionally, I thinks it's just nuts to say this isn't a situation one would ever need to use in the real world. Would you really want to carry a camera to a shoot and have to think about what shutter speed/aperture combination might or might not work, or what ISO might cause problems if there are bright lights somewhere in the shot? There's enough to think about on a shoot without having those kind of concerns about your equipment.

[j. borger]

in streetfotography, those shots are common:

 

see the bulblight, no chance to escape in that framing:

I think that shot would have come out perfectly with the M8.

It is well exposed .. the bulb is not over exposed several stops.

I did several tests .. and especially in B&W it is far less of a problem than suggested here at the forum. The environment of the bulb has to be dark black too, which is not the case in this scene.

I do not say the streaking problem is not real ,,.... but there is not a problem in every picture where a lamp or light is included in the scene .. besides the choice of iso plays a role .. 640 and below most likely no problem at all

[chrism]

Would you really want to carry a camera to a shoot and have to think about what shutter speed/aperture combination might or might not work....

 

Not to argue with your point, but that's exactly what I do think about - it's one of the things that makes taking pictures interesting!

 

Chris

[fotografr]

Not to argue with your point, but that's exactly what I do think about - it's one of the things that makes taking pictures interesting!

 

Chris

 

Yes, I also think about aperture and shutter speed, of course. It should have been obvious what I meant was I didn't want to have to think about combinations that might cause banding. That's why I used the words, "might or might not work."

[newyorkone]

Additionally, I thinks it's just nuts to say this isn't a situation one would ever need to use in the real world. Would you really want to carry a camera to a shoot and have to think about what shutter speed/aperture combination might or might not work, or what ISO might cause problems if there are bright lights somewhere in the shot? There's enough to think about on a shoot without having those kind of concerns about your equipment.

 

 

Funny how you talk about being misunderstood.

 

I don't think you have understood my point either. Even after I clearly stated that I AM ONLY TALKING ABOUT THE SITUATION IN THIS SERIES OF IMAGES.

 

I think the banding is enhanced by the fact that ISO 1250 was used to make a test shot in a situation that clearly did not require it. As others have stated, in real life this doesn't happen as often and to this degree.

 

When people take pictures just for the sake of testing, great photography is NOT what is first and foremost in their mind - e.g. what's the right aperture or shutter speed for this shot and what ISO do I need to set in order to get that. They are thinking about getting test shots that show certain parameters while throwing all other considerations out of the door. This is precisely why uncontrolled testing is so worthless and misleading.

 

Is the banding problem a real issue. Yes...no doubt. But I think it is blown way out of proportion IMHO by test shots like this and by people taking more test shots looking for the problem. In everyday shooting, as people have stated, it is less a factor, but to be perfectly clear, still a real problem.

 

Also, compared the IR/Magenta issue...this banding thing is a moot point.

[fotografr]

Funny how you talk about being misunderstood.

 

I don't think you have understood my point either. Even after I clearly stated that I AM ONLY TALKING ABOUT THE SITUATION IN THIS SERIES OF IMAGES.

 

I think the banding is enhanced by the fact that ISO 1250 was used to make a test shot in a situation that clearly did not require it. As others have stated, in real life this doesn't happen as often and to this degree.

 

When people take pictures just for the sake of testing, great photography is NOT what is first and foremost in their mind - e.g. what's the right aperture or shutter speed for this shot and what ISO do I need to set in order to get that. They are thinking about getting test shots that show certain parameters while throwing all other considerations out of the door. This is precisely why uncontrolled testing is so worthless and misleading.

 

Is the banding problem a real issue. Yes...no doubt. But I think it is blown way out of proportion IMHO by test shots like this and by people taking more test shots looking for the problem. In everyday shooting, as people have stated, it is less a factor, but to be perfectly clear, still a real problem.

 

Also, compared the IR/Magenta issue...this banding thing is a moot point.

 

This is a pointless debate. If these issues don't bother you, buy the camera. If you're worried about them, don't buy it.

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[alexr]

Funny how you talk about being misunderstood.

 

I don't think you have understood my point either. Even after I clearly stated that I AM ONLY TALKING ABOUT THE SITUATION IN THIS SERIES OF IMAGES.

.

 

You are really wrong here and this is why: imagine the same pub, only the subject is not an old man but two 5yr olds jumping like crazy, and throwing glasses full of coke in the air. You wanna freeze the action perfectly. You wanna see every droplet of coke. In ambient light. You need that fast ISO. And you get the rubbish banding.