Back into the box it goes ... : -(

[sean_reid]

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Sean--did you shoot your wedding with this yet?

 

.

 

Hi Jamie,

 

Not yet, that will be on Saturday. I've only had the production camera since 10/20 and this is off-season here for weddings. Prior to that I tested two pre-production cameras in August that did not have final firmware. That was for the functional testing of the body (finder, ergonomics, controls, shutter sound, etc). The first camera I got for image quality testing was on 10/20. I gave feedback on the pre-production cameras when I used them in August but they weren't fully tweaked yet.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

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[hyper67]

My position is that since I have not received it yet I will we wait, but If it isn't fixed when my dealer calls me, I'm not going ahead. It isn't worth it no matter how good it is in certain situations.

[aj37]

Yesterday, I discovered how really bad the magenta cast is with the M8.

 

I concur that this must be a manifestation of the M8's extended IR sensitivity. I often use fabrics as backgrounds for studio shooting and have found that because their IR and UV reflectance varies, they often photograph somewhat differently than how they look to the eye; it also varies from camera model to camera model. (This isn't usually a factor with velvet, but it also can vary with how the fabric is laundered -- many detergents incorporate optical brighteners that shift UV radiation into the visible spectrum to make whites look more vivid.)

 

These example photos are more extreme than I've seen from other cameras, though. From information in posts in the "streaking" thread, it seems that the M8 is sensitive to light in the IR region that our eyes don't see; this extra light gets rendered as magenta, causing a color cast. Sean Reid has posted info from Leica to the effect that most DSLRs have an IR cutoff filter incorporated into the anti-alias filter; with the M8, there is no AA filter, only a very thin protective cover glass (the thinness of this glass also reduces the problem of color fringing) but this glass does not suppress IR to the extent to which we have become accustomed with other digital cameras.

 

 

I would be very interested to see the result of the experiment using the video IR blocking filter. Sean's post indicated that Leica plans to introduce such a filter for the M8; I would guess it probably is going to have to become standard equipment for M8 photographers who want to use the camera for fashion work.

 

(The M8's apparent heightened IR sensitivity also suggests interesting possibilities for producing monochrome photos using the type of visually opaque IR-pass filter normally used for film infrared photography; has anyone tried that with an M8 yet?)

[plasticman]

I simply can't understand the forgiving attitude of the apologists, i'm afraid. The camera simply isn't ready. Full stop.

However, Leica is still sending them out to an overwhelmingly unsuspecting public. Why on earth should we therefore show our 'support' by buying the M8 and awaiting some mythical future fix?

 

Right now i'm so glad that my order wasn't filled earlier: last week we had a photoshoot here and had i received the camera i'd definitely have used it for the candid 'making-of-the-ad' shots that'll go online, instead of the Canon. One of the models on the shoot flew from New York > London > Stockholm. Imagine telling the client that those shots were ruined.

[Guest guy_mancuso]

I concur that this must be a manifestation of the M8's extended IR sensitivity. I often use fabrics as backgrounds for studio shooting and have found that because their IR and UV reflectance varies, they often photograph somewhat differently than how they look to the eye; it also varies from camera model to camera model. (This isn't usually a factor with velvet, but it also can vary with how the fabric is laundered -- many detergents incorporate optical brighteners that shift UV radiation into the visible spectrum to make whites look more vivid.)

 

These example photos are more extreme than I've seen from other cameras, though. From information in posts in the "streaking" thread, it seems that the M8 is sensitive to light in the IR region that our eyes don't see; this extra light gets rendered as magenta, causing a color cast. Sean Reid has posted info from Leica to the effect that most DSLRs have an IR cutoff filter incorporated into the anti-alias filter; with the M8, there is no AA filter, only a very thin protective cover glass (the thinness of this glass also reduces the problem of color fringing) but this glass does not suppress IR to the extent to which we have become accustomed with other digital cameras.

 

 

I would be very interested to see the result of the experiment using the video IR blocking filter. Sean's post indicated that Leica plans to introduce such a filter for the M8; I would guess it probably is going to have to become standard equipment for M8 photographers who want to use the camera for fashion work.

 

(The M8's apparent heightened IR sensitivity also suggests interesting possibilities for producing monochrome photos using the type of visually opaque IR-pass filter normally used for film infrared photography; has anyone tried that with an M8 yet?)

 

I get my M8 tomorrow but in two days I will get a IR blocking filter to try and see if that actually works. I can't give up on the M8 i have 9 lenses here that are just looking at me going what would you like to do next buddy and sold one of my DMR's so i need the M8 for backup and work. I will probably do a test like Marc just did with the Profoto's also and see if it actually cuts the IR off or not. Someone has to try this. If i only need it for certain times it maybe not so bad until the fix is in. Now from memory and i maybe wrong the DMR does have protective glass that has the IR built in but no AA and I thought the M8 was the same here

[aj37]

Now the real question is why the IR filter had to be different than the one on the DMR or is it the same and is not working. There is something down deep to be the reason and none of us know that answer.

 

Sean's posts of the info he got from Leica suggest an answer for this. The DMR is made for SLR lenses, which have a longer image path, meaning light rays do not need to strike the outer area of the sensor at such an extreme angle as they do on the M8.

 

Everyone is familiar by now with the effect this ray-angle issue has on vignetting, but apparently Leica also determined that it is also a factor in the color fringing we see on so many digital cameras (often written off as "chromatic aberration" in the lens, even when the same lens produces no CA in photographs made on film.) To address this on the M8, they made the sensor's protective cover glass very thin, reducing the scattering that can produce the fringes but also, presumably, reducing its IR-blocking ability compared to that of the DMR.

 

This is all speculation on my part, but it's supported by what we have been learning in other discussions. It looks as if we are now confronting the fact that digital-camera image quality has been a tradeoff all along, and that some of the decisions Leica made with the M8 to improve some aspects of image quality (e.g. omission of the AA filter and use of a thin cover glass to improve fine detail rendering and reduce color fringing) have consequences in other areas (unexpected IR sensitivity.)

[Samir Jahjah]

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I simply can't understand the forgiving attitude of the apologists, i'm afraid. The camera simply isn't ready. Full stop.

However, Leica is still sending them out to an overwhelmingly unsuspecting public. Why on earth should we therefore show our 'support' by buying the M8 and awaiting some mythical future fix?

 

Right now i'm so glad that my order wasn't filled earlier: last week we had a photoshoot here and had i received the camera i'd definitely have used it for the candid 'making-of-the-ad' shots that'll go online, instead of the Canon. One of the models on the shoot flew from New York > London > Stockholm. Imagine telling the client that those shots were ruined.

 

 

I can t understand that either! Even some who have not received the M8 are looking forward to receive it to check for themselves the artifacts !!!

[Guest guy_mancuso]

Maybe because we have 12 grand in lenses that we just don't want to sell or we are crazy idiots. I'm both and I need it to work and like anything else i will figure it out , that is what i get paid to do. You don't want one fine you have that right but some of us set ourselves up to be working tomorrow with this camera . How the hell are we supposed to know it went south. Christ give us a break , i am really tired of the freaking whining about it . Don't buy it and go shoot what you have but i will be damned to just walk away. I will make it work come hell or high water and if the fix can't be done than i will send it back sell the glass and go back and buy another DMR becuase my track record with that is perfect and there is no denying that it does not work perfectly. I'm done with hearing about the whining about this. I will test it and figure out a solution just like many Pro's would do is figure a way to get it done.

[hyper67]

The bottom line is that if this is not an "easy" fix and Leica misjudged certain factors in order to produce a "superior" product then the camera is flawed to begin with and whatever solution it does provide will be a compromised solution. So even though I am willing to give them the benefit of the doubt-that they can fix this- the clock is ticking....

[nielsb]

Christ give us a break , i am really tired of the freaking whining about it . Don't buy it and go shoot what you have but i will be damned to just walk away.

I'm done with hearing about the whining about this. I will test it and figure out a solution just like many Pro's would do is figure a way to get it done.

Amen to that Guy!! As I've said before; I'm a total necomer to Leica, but if my dealer had an M8 today, I'd grab it. What I don't understand is that most of the people that whines about the M8, don't actually have one - and doesn't seem to even be in the market for one. It almost seems they are happy to see this mishap.

 

Niels

[J_Brittenson]

I suspect the magenta 'cast' some people have observed is caused by IR as well... This is really problematic and certainly can't be fixed with a profile. I agree with those who say a filter on every lens is unacceptable -- for one thing, not all lenses will accept filters, and filters cause hot spots and ghosting.

 

I'm not really sure what to do about this. I would like a commitment to fix this from Leica; my real concern is either that they won't fix it, or will fix it in a future version of the camera with no recourse for those of us who already bought one. Without a commitment I'll cancel my order and wait until they get it right.

[stunsworth]

Jan, they have to fix it. My M8 is still on order. I'm not due to get it before Feb/March next year and I expect the issues to have been addressed and corrected by then.

 

They must have changed something fundamental before the final release. I could understand the streaking not being noticed, but the black becoming purple is another matter IMHO.

[egpj]

I would like to see someone put 720 filter on the M8 to see what it's NIR black and white images look like. If they come out looking great that would be something beneficial for me. When not shooting NIR I would just throw a filter on the front to block anything higher then 800 nanometers.

[R10dreamer]

The real issue here is the QC of Leica. But remember guys....... If they go down then Leica glass goes down and if Leica glass goes down the only options in 35mm style photography are Nikon or Canon and every Leica lens and body out there will instantly become worthless. Leica will fix this problem. They have no choice unless the CEO running the company is the great grandson of the captain of the Titanic.

[wparsonsgisnet]

First off, thanks to Marc for the brilliantly clear demonstration of the magenta problem.

 

Second, Leica will certainly fix this. I am taking delivery of my M8 seconds after my dealer calls (this week! please).

 

Third, we may be getting a present here. I noted in another post that the color space for this sensor is much bigger than that of the other sensors it is compared to, and that the space includes non-visible segments of the spectrum.

 

1. When Leica (when, not if, c'mon guys) solves this problem, I hope it will be a post application of a filter, like a setting in C1.

2. That way, we could have an IR-sensitive camera if we wished (for IR photog, of course, not for weddings and tuxes).

 

Regards,

[Samir Jahjah]

Maybe because we have 12 grand in lenses that we just don't want to sell or we are crazy idiots. I'm both and I need it to work and like anything else i will figure it out , that is what i get paid to do. You don't want one fine you have that right but some of us set ourselves up to be working tomorrow with this camera . How the hell are we supposed to know it went south. Christ give us a break , i am really tired of the freaking whining about it . Don't buy it and go shoot what you have but i will be damned to just walk away. I will make it work come hell or high water and if the fix can't be done than i will send it back sell the glass and go back and buy another DMR becuase my track record with that is perfect and there is no denying that it does not work perfectly. I'm done with hearing about the whining about this. I will test it and figure out a solution just like many Pro's would do is figure a way to get it done.

 

I have 7 M lenses, 2 VG ones, and I definitely will get an M8, once Leica fixes the problems that have been reported! In the meantime, I still have 3 m-bodies I can work with, and 2 other digital Canon. Not only I am on the market, but I already send a downpayment to get one! But do I want to contemplate purple, banding on my shots? No, definetely not.This is not whining this is how most customers will react and if Leica want the M8 to be a success, they have to fix these problems asap. If they don't I will not get one.

[newyorkone]

I would like to see someone put 720 filter on the M8 to see what it's NIR black and white images look like. If they come out looking great that would be something beneficial for me. When not shooting NIR I would just throw a filter on the front to block anything higher then 800 nanometers.

 

This is actually a good test to see if the problem really is IR or if we are just barking up the wrong tree.

 

Can someone with a M8 do this? Just hold the filter over the lens if need be.

[TSK]

The real issue here is the QC of Leica.

 

It should be classified as a major flaw in design or manufacturing if all the speculations and analysis in this thread are found to be true.

 

Very disappointing.

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[plasticman]

Christ give us a break , i am really tired of the freaking whining about it .

 

I frankly find your attitude patronizing and insulting. This forum is at least partly about airing concerns about a camera that some of us (myself included) have on order.

 

I assume you'd rather keep problems under wraps so that unsuspecting customers buy the M8 and only discover its faults afterwards.

[Eoin]

I think if I had invested 12G's in glass I'd be getting a little hot n bothered. But not at other people expressing their concern over the short comings of the M8. Most right minded people would expect some minor flaws in a new to market product and generally expect some fix to be made available in the not to distant future. But as I read more and more peoples findings regarding the various issues around this M8 the more I'm beginning to wonder if the overall fix will be that simple and why this was allowed to reach the market with leica knowing about these issues. And at the end of the day all I ever wanted was to be able to record in the best possible detail what my minds eye saw. Sadly I now have two choices to make while I await delivery of my M8, either cancel my order and wait to see how you guys fair out in the short term, or take a risk and keep my M8 when it arrives knowing it's problems and prepairing my self for a trip on a long and rocky road which will hopefully end up with an M8 which lives up to the expectation of leica nirvana....... hmmmm not an easy choice to make.