gesper Posted November 8, 2006 Share #101 Posted November 8, 2006 Advertisement (gone after registration) My M8 is on the way, and I dont regret it. I am confident that Leica will fix it as fast as they can. This is a high-priced, flagship product for them. Also, we know it is possible for them to make a great digital because they did it with the DMR. While I wait for the fix, I can at least be using the camera and getting to know it. The alternative is to not have an M8 now, wait until they fix it, wait thru the waiting list again, and then at some point in the future get an M8. I would rather have a flawed but usuable version to use now, and give it up for a few weeks down the road to get it fixed. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted November 8, 2006 Posted November 8, 2006 Hi gesper, Take a look here Back into the box it goes ... : -( . I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
booggerg Posted November 8, 2006 Share #102 Posted November 8, 2006 I have to say that I feel thats harsh. I feel secure that had any such issues come to light in the process of his testing we would have known about it. I'm puzzled as to why the pre-release reviews of the M8 did not discover these problems. Then I looked at a certain person's early sample pictures from the M8 and indeed - the blacks in the color pictures all have a magenta tone. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TSK Posted November 8, 2006 Share #103 Posted November 8, 2006 Also, we know it is possible for them to make a great digital because they did it with the DMR. The big deal is they've changed their partner since - from Imacon to an anonymous German company. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
adan Posted November 9, 2006 Share #104 Posted November 9, 2006 My M8 is on the way, and I dont regret it. I am confident that Leica will fix it as fast as they can. This is a high-priced, flagship product for them. Also, we know it is possible for them to make a great digital because they did it with the DMR. While I wait for the fix, I can at least be using the camera and getting to know it. The alternative is to not have an M8 now, wait until they fix it, wait thru the waiting list again, and then at some point in the future get an M8. I would rather have a flawed but usuable version to use now, and give it up for a few weeks down the road to get it fixed. This is kind of how I feel - although believe me that I am unhappy about the situation as it affects the reputation and sales and future of the M8 (and Leica) in general, and the disappointment it is generating among those wedding and fashion pros who DEPEND on black blacks even more than the rest of us. Oddly - I prefer finding out about these flaws BEFORE taking delivery - that way I can get my buyer's remorse out of the way before spending the money, and look at my results (such as they may be) more dispassionately. Ultimately, Leica MUST come up with an unambiguous - internal - hardware - fix. A better dichroic IR-block filter on the cover glass, or heavier IR blocking dye IN the cover glass (or both). Even if it means shifting the focal plane and a complete rebuild for each camera (to allow for a slightly thicker sensor cover glass, if that's what it takes). Extra external filters and advice on avoiding certain fabrics won't cut it, in anything but the very short run (single-digit months). They must have changed something fundamental before the final release. I could understand the streaking not being noticed, but the black becoming purple is another matter IMHO. Actually, I have 30-40 "betaware" M8 shots I took in late Sept. (firmware 0.2), some of which clearly show magenta-tinted black cloth (and also rather red-shifted dark olive drab - also likely an IR affect). I just thought the odd colors were a pre-production profiling issue. The REAL irony? The black cloth showing the magenta cast is LEICA salepersons' official shirts at the Leica Day where I made the shots!! But obviously this was not something that cropped up with changes to hardware/firmware at the last moment. A flawed M8 is still the best digital camera out there for me - it's either that or back to an M6 and Velvia (which has its own purple casts). A rangefinder thing, not a "red dot" thing. But I do not think it is possible to express too strongly to Leica - via any path possible - just how BAD a situation they are facing. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sinwen Posted November 9, 2006 Share #105 Posted November 9, 2006 I suggest we call that the "digital metamerism" :-) I feel very bad for Leica and hope they will fix this at the earliest. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
kdemas Posted November 9, 2006 Share #106 Posted November 9, 2006 Marc - Very interesting and insightful posting. I just saw this thread and it certainly is a concern as I have had an M8 since last Friday. One word of caution I would say to everyone... give Leica a chance to sort out these problems. Lets face it, this is pretty new territory for the company and this "first of breed" rangefinder (for Leica) deserves a chance to evolve, hopefully through firmware updates. As Marc can attest to Contax made mistakes with the the ND and, rather than dealing with them and evolving the product improving it they basically freaked out, pulled the camera and in th eprocess killed the company. Leica needs to take the fantastic input many of you are providing and hit the technical hurdles hard and fast. They need to be open with their efforts and instill confidence that the company respects their loyal clients and will "make it work". Overall I am pleased with the camera, though I have been able to induce the "banding" that has been described elsewhere. Remember, the D2X and the 1D MKII were not the first digital SLRs Nicanon produced... we need to give Leica a chance to react. Kent ps- All that said it DOES hurt to spend $5K and have some of these issues. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rvaubel Posted November 9, 2006 Share #107 Posted November 9, 2006 Advertisement (gone after registration) Actually, I have 30-40 "betaware" M8 shots I took in late Sept. (firmware 0.2), some of which clearly show magenta-tinted black cloth (and also rather red-shifted dark olive drab - also likely an IR affect). I just thought the odd colors were a pre-production profiling issue. The REAL irony? The black cloth showing the magenta cast is LEICA salepersons' official shirts at the Leica Day where I made the shots!! But obviously this was not something that cropped up with changes to hardware/firmware at the last moment. A flawed M8 is still the best digital camera out there for me - it's either that or back to an M6 and Velvia (which has its own purple casts). A rangefinder thing, not a "red dot" thing. But I do not think it is possible to express too strongly to Leica - via any path possible - just how BAD a situation they are facing. Andy I agree completely that the problems have been staring us in the face all along. I have been reviewing my rather expensive collection of M8 files going way back and all the issues were there, but I just didn't recognize there seriousness. I forgive myself for not recognizing the banding issue as it happens infrequently. But the purple/black shirt thing defys the expectations I put on my critical judgement. What made me accept a fashion change were nuns, priests and people in wedding parties and piano recetials suddenly decided to wear purple instead of black? I was so intent at searching for noise at 1250 ISO that the obvious flew by my perception. I also agree that Leica MUST accept total responsibility to mitigate the problem temporarily and cure it eventially. A software/filter patch would be acceptable to me for the immediate future. But Leica should and must be willing to accept the responsibility of making a hardware recall if that becomes necessary. If they would make that commitment, I would have no hesitation on accepting delivery on my M8. Even with the flaws, its a great camera. Rex P.S. If I were to accept the flawed camera with a promise of a hardware fix later, you know, in reality I would probably never send it in....I'd just keep using the filter...lazy, human natural at work! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
KM-25 Posted November 9, 2006 Share #108 Posted November 9, 2006 The real issue here is the QC of Leica. But remember guys....... If they go down then Leica glass goes down and if Leica glass goes down the only options in 35mm style photography are Nikon or Canon and every Leica lens and body out there will instantly become worthless. Huh? There are many pros who actually prefer the film Leica's to any digital they may ever produce ( this one for sure ). Worthless? I don't think so. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
KM-25 Posted November 9, 2006 Share #109 Posted November 9, 2006 I'm really glad about two things. I didn't pony up $4800 for the M8. Nor did I pony up whatever the charge is for the "Pay a Fee" review service someone here offers. I can learn all I need to from posts like Marc's. Did the "Pay a Fee" review have anything to say about the blacks turning into magenta issue? I'll wait until Marc gives the OK before buying an M8, regardless of what the "experts" have to say about it. ;-) Harsh.............................................but true. Leica, how about you send the M8 for a proper test in real world, high profile, paid image making by one of the pros mentioned below? Send it to: Me, David Alan Harvey, Chris Rainer, Jefferey Aronson, Lynn Goldsmith... See the trend Leica? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goardhead Posted November 9, 2006 Share #110 Posted November 9, 2006 To those who are thinking about excepting the camera as is, and waiting for the fix. Do you remember the early M7. They delivered a number of cameras with the M6 viewfinder and if you wanted the flare fix. Do you remember who paid for it. They were aware of the issue had the solution shipped the camera with the old viewfinder and stiffed the customer for the upgrade. You may want to think twice before taking delivery. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rfleica Posted November 9, 2006 Share #111 Posted November 9, 2006 To those who are thinking about excepting the camera as is, and waiting for the fix. Do you remember the early M7. They delivered a number of cameras with the M6 viewfinder and if you wanted the flare fix. Do you remember who paid for it. They were aware of the issue had the solution shipped the camera with the old viewfinder and stiffed the customer for the upgrade. You may want to think twice before taking delivery. it's a trade off. risk vs early adoption. some statements from leica - unambiguous and transparent - would help me in the decision. for the time being, i am waiting it out. it's for leica to lose it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwilliamsphotography Posted November 9, 2006 Author Share #112 Posted November 9, 2006 Enough already. It's back in the box and will stay there until 1) a real solution is announced 2) no solution is announced and it goes back to the dealer. Back to work. Tttthaaat's All Folks ! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest hagen Posted November 9, 2006 Share #113 Posted November 9, 2006 To those who are thinking about excepting the camera as is, and waiting for the fix. Do you remember the early M7. They delivered a number of cameras with the M6 viewfinder and if you wanted the flare fix. Do you remember who paid for it. They were aware of the issue had the solution shipped the camera with the old viewfinder and stiffed the customer for the upgrade. You may want to think twice before taking delivery. Later on they offered an upgrade of the viewfinder for EACH M7 free of cost. They also offered an upgrade to the optical DX reader for those who had problems with theirs free of cost. Up to now Leica always offered a perfect after sales service for customers and often far above the warranty period. Give them a chance to fix the problem and I'm shure they will. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest stnami Posted November 9, 2006 Share #114 Posted November 9, 2006 outa here box and all Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwilliamsphotography Posted November 9, 2006 Author Share #115 Posted November 9, 2006 Think about it Peter. Some blacks in the photo are correct and others are a horrible magenta. How would a processing engine select which to make correct, and leave the rest? And yes, I shot jpgs also. Same result. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpbeer Posted November 9, 2006 Share #116 Posted November 9, 2006 But I do not think it is possible to express too strongly to Leica - via any path possible - just how BAD a situation they are facing. I am slowly getting the impression that, given the various contributions to this forum (look at the posts mentioning dicussions with dealers), Solms does not seem to be fully aware of the PR disaster unfolding right now under our eyes. The statement received through Leica US by Sean is mind boggling and simply arrogant. In substance: take it or leave it. At least one positive thing: the forum makes for interesting reading, almost as good as an Agatha Christie novel... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RSVP Posted November 10, 2006 Share #117 Posted November 10, 2006 Try this: Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/8743-back-into-the-box-it-goes/?do=findComment&comment=90080'>More sharing options...
masquar Posted November 10, 2006 Share #118 Posted November 10, 2006 Marc, thank you so much for your test, very helpfull indeed ! Ciao Massimo Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toon Posted November 10, 2006 Share #119 Posted November 10, 2006 I owned (and returned) 3 Epson R-D1 camera's (the 3d an R-D1s) since feb this year. Although I loved the (idea of this type of) camera it proved to have serious hot-pixeled ccd's and unreliable distance measuring calibration. AND: they all had difficulties with black, in just the same way the M8 now proves to have. Nobody had written about it and I hadn't noticed it immediately (God knows I was distracted by the other problems). I returned the third and ordered an M8 feeling sure my troubles (except the financial ones) to be over. Now the horror returns and I have to face my dealer yet again! The irony is that I sent my 4 Leica lenses more than a month ago to be 'given' the six-dot-coding. Only my Noctilux proved to be code-able, the others had 'a screw exactly where the dots should come'. Now my M8 has arrived but my lenses are......somewhere, after we refused to let them be 'cleaned' fot a mere € 1000. So I have a probably faulty camera without lenses waiting at my dealer. This is becoming obsessional, not professional. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Sievers Posted November 12, 2006 Share #120 Posted November 12, 2006 Specialised fashion photography challenge ;-) http://tinyrevolution.com/mt-static/images/joker.jpg http://agoldenworld.wordpress.com/files/2006/04/jack%20nicholson%20the%20jokerOrig.jpg Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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