innerimager Posted November 8, 2006 Share #41 Posted November 8, 2006 Advertisement (gone after registration) 2nd with the M8 set to the correct Kelvin but no adjustment in C1: Steve - This is what I, and Sean are saying- Correct WB doesn't solve the problem, but is an important starting point. A color profile can be created that might work well, but that's after the fact of too much IR reaching the sensor. btw, I also use a color meter for best results in getting indoor WB set by K value......Peter Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted November 8, 2006 Posted November 8, 2006 Hi innerimager, Take a look here purple RD1 shot with M8. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
Guest stevenrk Posted November 8, 2006 Share #42 Posted November 8, 2006 And one final one, where I took the shot and used C1 to correct the color in the foam to represent a somewhat accurate rendition of the blue. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/8734-purple-rd1-shot-with-m8/?do=findComment&comment=87039'>More sharing options...
Guest stevenrk Posted November 8, 2006 Share #43 Posted November 8, 2006 Steve - This is what I, and Sean are saying- Correct WB doesn't solve the problem, ....Peter Peter, exactly. There is no WB, even for a simple shot like this, that will solve the problem. And suggesting we all attach filters on our lenses is also not a solution. The solution should have been to work through this before releasing the camera. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
petermcwerner Posted November 8, 2006 Share #44 Posted November 8, 2006 Pascal Meheut argues that the purple problem is due to the Capture One profile for the M8. He made his own profile that can be downloaded to correct the problem. See the following long thread: M8 vs DMR, very different colors in Capture One. In this thread there are other interesting contributions on this subject. Consensus was that it is the fault of Capture one - which is easily corrected with a new profile - and has nothing to do with the M8 and IR sensitivity. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest stevenrk Posted November 8, 2006 Share #45 Posted November 8, 2006 Hi Steven, Headed to bed but will look at these and discuss more tomorrow. G'night Sean Sean, much appreciated as always. Good night, and hope your friend finds a nice magic bullet that fixes this -- and not just patches it for some shots in some situations. Although I'm sorry to say that I'm doubtful that a color profile will solve it -- I'm sure Phase tried and their profiles are usually pretty darn good. Best, Steven Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pascal_meheut Posted November 8, 2006 Share #46 Posted November 8, 2006 Sure but hell, why reading other threads when it is easier to talk about a known problem like it is new and speculate again, come back with plot theory. One thing I'm quite sure of is that Leica was not aware of the problem or at least of its extent because they were quite surprised when I reported it. Anyway, if someone wants to try the custom profile (new version, slightly better but far from perfect), he can download it here. http://www.photofaq.eu/temp/Leica%20M8%20Incandescent%20(reproduction%20D50%20sat-10%20ctr-5).icc To use it install it, then convert using C1 configured to "Embed camera profile". Then in Photoshop, change the profile to from "Leica M8 Generic" to the custom one and compare. If ok, you can convert to AdobeRGB or whatever you like. One can also set the profile directly in C1 but this is less convenient when testing. Also, the WB should be done in C1 using the various tool but no tweaking to convert the colors should be done when using the profile. Anyway, they do not work, they just replace a magenta cast by a green cast. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest stevenrk Posted November 8, 2006 Share #47 Posted November 8, 2006 Advertisement (gone after registration) Pascal Meheut argues that the purple problem is due to the Capture One profile for the M8. He made his own profile that can be downloaded to correct the problem. See the following long thread: M8 vs DMR, very different colors in Capture One. In this thread there are other interesting contributions on this subject. Consensus was that it is the fault of Capture one - which is easily corrected with a new profile - and has nothing to do with the M8 and IR sensitivity. Unfortunately, the links aren't live anymore, including the one Pascal has to it above. But if they come back on line I'll develop it in C1 with the icc in this thread and post the result. Sure but hell, why reading other threads when it is easier to talk about a known problem like it is new and speculate again, come back with plot theory. Pascal, no plot theories being looked for here. In fact the only plot I'm interested in is one that leads to an M8 that isn't a complex mix of work arounds to issues that should have been dealt with before release. But I do not believe that Leica was not aware of the purple tint problem -- I think this would be kind of insulting to them to suggest that they could engineer this camera without recognizing this issue. Your thread is also very informative on the issue. it differs however in that what I've found is similar materials pulling in different colors, so that tweaking the profile to get the right balance on a GMcB chart doesn't neccesarily buy you anything -- but look forward to trying the profile once you send up a new live link and see if in fact it does cure the issue. That would be great. Best, steven Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
reddawn Posted November 8, 2006 Share #48 Posted November 8, 2006 I do not think it is acceptable for a camera of this level to have Auto WB and WB Presets if they do not work to a reasonable accuracy. I do not think it is acceptable for a camera to render an item which is patently black as a dark magenta. I also do not think it is acceptable to dismiss any problem by saying "you can sort it out later in C1". I'm sure it will be possible to use a modified profile to render the black correctly but surely only if you have a white reference to work with? This camera should be producing JPEGs right out of the camera which rank with the best from any other camera with the promise of further improvement if you process raw. I can't agreed more! RAW is good but JPEGs should be of a high standard too. I can imagine many a photojournalists - the same pple who carry a DSLR for their work and a film Leica for leisure wlil appreciate a digital M they can use to complement their work, shooting JPEGs, and a digital M they can use for leisure, shooting RAW without pressures of deadlines. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
reddawn Posted November 8, 2006 Share #49 Posted November 8, 2006 And after half an hour, I still can't find it. If I find it, I'll post it here. If someone else finds it, please post it. My sincere apologies. My fault. hey no worries Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
holgerf Posted November 8, 2006 Share #50 Posted November 8, 2006 David--My apologies. I thought the link I referenced above at http://www.leica-camera-user.com/digital-forum/8881-purple-rd1-shot-m8.html#post87121 was the direct link to the Leica site. That post is in error. I'm checking to find the reference again. I find it extremely hard to get around the redesigned Leica web sites. I do remember that the mention of the AWB was under the title "The M8 Experience" or something like that. It was a page on an English-language site, not a downloadable PDF. I linked directly to it from an item on this forum, so it may be either US or UK. And now the only item I can find with that title is on The Digital Outback, but I'm sure what I remember was the much neater and more legible Leica site. Sorry for the confusion. Not right of me to blame others for not reading Leica's word on the topic when I can't find the entry again myself. And after half an hour, I still can't find it. If I find it, I'll post it here. If someone else finds it, please post it. My sincere apologies. My fault. --HC Leica’s statement can be read on Uwe Steinmuellers review; scroll to the buttom of this site: http://www.outbackphoto.com/reviews/equipment/leica_m8/Leica_M8_review.html# Best Holger Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pascal_meheut Posted November 8, 2006 Share #51 Posted November 8, 2006 And Sean what I don't understand is that we were told that C1 was producing great results. Leica apparently knew all the time though that these problems existed. How can we now trust that some future fix will solve this, and not create additional problems as the R9 firmware update has? Looks like plot theory to me. Because Leica did not know of such a problem. And the main problem the new DMR firmware update has created was a color shift on the LCD screen. The images are fine. But for those of you who do not trust Lieica to fix the problems and already have their M8, I'll be glad to buy them back. Even better, I'm offering you an exchange: give me your M8, I'll give a Canon Eos5D or a Nikon D200 in exchange And if someone can post the original RD-1 image DNG here, I'll see what I can do with it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpbeer Posted November 8, 2006 Share #52 Posted November 8, 2006 @ho_co Leica is aware of and working on the problem and has posted that fact on their web site Could you point me to the appropriate official Leica link? JP Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
carstenw Posted November 8, 2006 Share #53 Posted November 8, 2006 Sean, I took my camera back to the Leica store yesterday to show them the problem, and he carefully shot a white surface to set the white balance correctly, and then he took a picture of my sweater, which while normally black, looked very purple. I don't think WB or profiling will fix this problem. What kind of profile can leave true black black (eg. black-painted objects), leave true purple purple, yet turn black rendered as purple back into black? A profile is merely a colour-lookup table, not a magical device. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rvaubel Posted November 8, 2006 Share #54 Posted November 8, 2006 third, with the M8 set to kelvin and adjustments to WB and tint made in C1: To do this test properly, you must *know the color temperature of the light source *have a GretaMacbeth color chart in the frame *have a 5 scale grey card in the frame *be ready to spend countless hours creating a custom color profile by a very boring and reiterative process that takes a long time to do right. Then you have to do the same thing over again for the different light sources you want to profile. You really need at least incandesent and daylight, but I have a couple of flourescents I use occasionally. What I'm trying to say is, if you gave me a camera with a yellow filter on it, I could develop a color profile for it that would subtract out the color of the filter. So no matter what a "error" Leica has made with regard to IR filter selection, it can be completely compensated for with the proper color profile. What I need is delivery on my M8 so I can tackle this issue. Once I get a reasonable profile, I will make it available on this forum for anyone that wants to use it. Individual camera variations shouldn't be that different. The one problem is the profiles don't translate very well at all from Photoshop Raw to other platforms. At least, I never tried it. But I don't see how it could work. Anyway, what I do is really what any employee of Abobe, or whatever, does when they develop a color profile for a new camera. Seeing how the release comes often in a matter of days, it's not surprising that some of the developers don't do the best of jobs sometimes. Maybe they were hung over or something. Rex ..arf.....tired doggy..............sssss Oh BTW, the Epson RD1 does make a great infra-red camera, It seems Epson went a little light on their blocking filter too! But that's a whole nother thread. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
nachkebia Posted November 8, 2006 Share #55 Posted November 8, 2006 I think they tryed to simulate fuji provia and velvia color cast :D Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wattsy Posted November 8, 2006 Share #56 Posted November 8, 2006 I think Leica are going to wish they had done what a number of people wanted them to do - that is, release the M8 as a black and white camera only (10MP of pure non-Bayer filtered goodness). Personally speaking, I agree with the point of view that changing the colour profiles will only take us so far and that the IR sensitivity may end up being a real hurdle. I could live with a 'hot mirror' filter solution in the short term (all my key lenses are E46 so it would be a manageable proposition) but I get the feeling that Leica are going to have to make some hardware changes for the medium to longer term. Provided Leica make good on the M8 issues at some point I'm still happier having the camera now to use (noting some limitations) than having to wait however many months it will take Leica to iron all the problems out. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tom0511 Posted November 8, 2006 Share #57 Posted November 8, 2006 I think Leica are going to wish they had done what a number of people wanted them to do - that is, release the M8 as a black and white camera only (10MP of pure non-Bayer filtered goodness). Overall reading all this I just cant believe it. How intense has been testig the camera if people didnt realize the problem before? Right now we are far away from being able to say the M8 sensor delievers what the DMR-sensor does. Many people like the DMR-sensor because it gives very good IQ right away, without having to do much post etc. Reading all this its no the case with the M8 so far. Still looking forward to geet my M8 but also I am really dissappointed. These are not just minor issues IMO. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pascal_meheut Posted November 8, 2006 Share #58 Posted November 8, 2006 Did you have one of the first DMR ? I did. And the results were worse. By a huge margin. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tom0511 Posted November 8, 2006 Share #59 Posted November 8, 2006 Did you have one of the first DMR ? I did. And the results were worse. By a huge margin. No, I bought it in spring 2006 and could use it without problems (besides slight focusing issues) right away. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
B&W Posted November 8, 2006 Share #60 Posted November 8, 2006 Case in point. The picture below was made with the M8 in very ordinary household tungsten lighting and the only color correction it has received was my setting WB via sampling from a WhiBal card. That is the same way I set color for any critical application. I use fruit and vegetables for these pictures because most people can relate the colors seen in the picture to the colors of these things in life. Yes, I know, the bananas are not quite ripe yet and the stock C1 profile is a touch high in saturation (for my taste, some may love it). Cheers, Sean I miss a aubergine Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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