markowich Posted November 7, 2006 Share #1 Posted November 7, 2006 Advertisement (gone after registration) i am somewhat puzzled by the fact that two main reviewers (reid and reichmann) wrote such positive reviews on the m8, inspite of the sensor issues it clearly has. mind you, i am not interested in reviewer bashing but it seems important for the photographic community to set standards, also for reviews. apparently these reviewers were so enchanted by the leica myth and got carried away so that they forgot about basic imaging quality control, in critical lighting situations which basically all users face sooner or later. also i am surprised by the patience of leica users.....admirable in comparism to the nikon bashing that went on when a comparatively minor banding issue was found in the D200 a year or so ago.... it is clear that nobody should base his buying decisons on reviews only, but after all i begin wondering what the hard information of the reviews really is. sentences like "..camera X produces better image quality then any other digital camera on the market..." can ony be considered soft information, if at all. as a scientist i would like to see some more or less standardized set of test (maybe a bit less rigorous than what phil askey does on dpreview), but it has to go beyond showing a few pics in favorable circumstances. in a professional environment everybody is subject to criticism. in a scientific context these papers (=reviews) would certainly be rejected by the referees. i think it takes serious reviews of the reviews. peter Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted November 7, 2006 Posted November 7, 2006 Hi markowich, Take a look here review quality. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
graham_mitchell Posted November 7, 2006 Share #2 Posted November 7, 2006 Do we know yet whether all M8s are affected? Is this a firmware or sensor issue? Until these things are known it is not fair to accuse anyone of missing a fault which may not have been present. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
carstenw Posted November 7, 2006 Share #3 Posted November 7, 2006 There are a lot of unstated assumptions in your email. As a scientist, I think you ought to track those down and double-check that they are true, before leveling accusations on a public forum. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest stnami Posted November 7, 2006 Share #4 Posted November 7, 2006 , ,,, am not interested in reviewer bashing,,,,.... so that is what you did ...inconsistent ??? from a non scientist as I am is this an attempt of humour by you??? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest malland Posted November 7, 2006 Share #5 Posted November 7, 2006 as a scientist i would like to see some more or less standardized set of test (maybe a bit less rigorous than....dpreview) Having read several reviews on dpreview, with all the standardized tests, I can say that I'll take Sean Reid's reviews any day: a lot more informative, balanced, practical and useful. It's easy to speak with hindsight that any review "should have found the banding problem", but that is not the reality of what happened. Obviously, on the next camera review every reviewer will test for banding, but then perhaps some other issue will emerge that does not surface in the testing... —MItch/Bangkok Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
j. borger Posted November 7, 2006 Share #6 Posted November 7, 2006 If i had not searched for it by shooting the typical scenes that show the banding i would probably not have noticed myself. I shoot scenes like that perhaps 2 times a year .... And if i look beyond the streaking/ banding issue ... the files are really unique in all other situations .. so i can perfectly understand the enthousiasm. I am overwhelmed myself ... still in a positive way! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cbretteville Posted November 7, 2006 Share #7 Posted November 7, 2006 Advertisement (gone after registration) Camera testing, as all other testing, is a hit-and-miss endevour. You only get results on what you test. If tester X did not shoot a scene that produces banding in the M8 s/he will not see the issue. A review like those written by Reid and Reichmann is not all scientific and objective (unlike Puts' MTF graphs), their feelings and expectations come into play as does how they shot and what they think makes a good illustration of a point. Shooting bright lights against a dark wall might not be considdered too interesting.... - Carl Testing all possible Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pascal_meheut Posted November 7, 2006 Share #8 Posted November 7, 2006 As another scientist and as the guy who found 2 issues with the M8 the very first week, I totally support both reviews: the M8 is indeed an excellent camera. And the banding issue is not that easy to find if one does not know where to look. I've been unlucky enough that it was obvious in 1 picture I shot. After that, it was easy to find it on previous pictures and to reproduce it. The Canon Eos1D and the Nikon D200 had the same problem. The Eos1DsII was losing pictures at the beginning. The tests did not notice that. Why ? Because the amount of bugs a few set of reviewers can found is much smaller that the ones found after a product in on the market. There is something called the 500 000 years bug in the computer industry because it would take this long to 1 guy testing to find it. But as soon as the program is used by 500 000 persons daily, it appears. Same here. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hyper67 Posted November 7, 2006 Share #9 Posted November 7, 2006 The Emperor's New Clothes I have been reading this forum obsessively for the past month or so gathering any news on the photographic unveiling of the century. I have to say that I myself have ordered one and I am impatiently waiting for its arrival, however I cannot hold back any longer and I feel the need to address a few issues here: 1. The camera seems well built and very M-like (a fact so reiterated over the past month that it sounds absurd to me.) 2. Its noisy at most ISO settings vs top DSLRs - somewhat expected in my opinion 3. It definitely has an unacceptable banding problem 4. It definitely has an awful magenta cast 5. It is obvious that this camera has not undergone enough testing - period. My background is in software development for the entertainment industry and testing is one of the most important and also complicated issues we deal with. Firstly development issues are finalized before entering this stage, and secondly and most importantly we never have the people who develop the programs test them. Developers always avoid the pitfalls of their own creations. So if all external reviewers were playing with firmware vs other than the one shipped how can they have found any problems?! 6. I have to say that a lot of the reviews that I have read are biased one way or another in favor of the M. 7. On the bright side I have seen some amazing images from different people that have posted their results - which is encouraging. All in all it looks like it will be a good camera with some great output coming from talented people all over, but ladies and gentlemen don't believe everything you read. “The Emperor has no clothes on”. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pascal_meheut Posted November 7, 2006 Share #10 Posted November 7, 2006 2. Its noisy at most ISO settings vs top DSLRs No, only when compared to the Canon. The D200 and D2x are top DSLRs too and the Leica is not noisy compared to them. 3. It definitely has an unacceptable banding problem Yes. occurs rarely. 1% of my shots yet 4. It definitely has an awful magenta cast No. The magenta cast appears only in certain conditions and is easy to fix. DMR RAW pictures were worse when it came out and now, they are perfect. 5. It is obvious that this camera has not undergone enough testing - period. M If so, this is the case of every digital camera that went out on the market. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestCoast Posted November 7, 2006 Share #11 Posted November 7, 2006 2. Its noisy at most ISO settings vs top DSLRs No, only when compared to the Canon. Then maybe Leica should have used Canon's 1DsII sensor instead of Kodak's in the M8! [warning: bad puns follow...] Oh well, not to worry. After all, we're just a band of merry photographers, enjoying our toys. Let's not cast doubt on the ability of the camera until it has been in use for a while. Perhaps if we make enough noise, Leica will address the issues promptly. But until then, just have fun and enjoy the camera. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wattsy Posted November 7, 2006 Share #12 Posted November 7, 2006 I largely agree with Alex's comments above. I'm very happy with my M8 but accept that it has issues that may need addressing. This means there is the annoying possibility that I will have to send my camera back to Solms and be without it for a number of weeks/months. The emergence of the banding/streaking/green blob/magenta cast/dodgy white balance issues will have clearly taken the wind out of Leica's sails. The company needs to be careful. Leica's marketing strategy has allowed the press and internet to whip up a frenzy of expectation in advance of the launch of the M8 but there is a danger that the current 'issues' are going to dominate the agenda going forward. I'm sure advance orders for this camera have been way above Leica's estimates but I'd be surprised if a number of those waiting in line are not beginning to rethink their decision. This applies particularly to those who are not already M system users - a market segment that Leica really needs to court if they are going to prosper in the medium to long term. It's always much easier to damage a reputation than repair one. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jojet Posted November 7, 2006 Share #13 Posted November 7, 2006 Well, Mine opion is that a review is only a help in strenghten your descision (or weaken). I've found and still find the reviews on the internet from DP, Reid an Reichman very helpful and in no way putting you in a direction you don't want to. And perhaps I'm the only person but I've even liked the intial review of Puts who claimed that the high iso performance of the m8 wasn't that good. The point is that even reviewers can't always covers everything in the test-enviroment even though Reid already pointed at a (slight) banding problem with the m8. Although the problem with the banding and green blob seems serious I think there is no reason to think that reviewers already discovered this and deliberately didn't mention it. The problem is often that you see some problems only in real life shooting. For example when the 24-105 IS Canon came out everybody was enthousiast about the performance. But only a little time later it became clear that there was a problem with flare. I can't remember the reviewers already discovered it before is came clear in the practice. ' Anyway I'm very glad with the reviews. I even want to have the m8 problem with the banding :-) just can't afford it now. So to Reid and the others: keep the reviews coming I'm looking forward! john Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest stnami Posted November 7, 2006 Share #14 Posted November 7, 2006 ..Rob I will donate my four laughing smiles to the cause Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wattsy Posted November 7, 2006 Share #15 Posted November 7, 2006 I'm not a subscriber to Sean Reid's reviews (I find the way he promotes his review site intrusive and annoying) but I'm quite sure he would have quickly drawn attention to the banding/streaking/blob issues had he encountered them in a big way during his testing period. It's one thing to put a positive spin on minor issues with a product that you like; it's quite another thing to deliberately choose to not mention potentially major flaws that you have encountered when reviewing a product. I'm sure neither Reid or Michael Reichmann are guilty of the latter. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Asher Kelman Posted November 7, 2006 Share #16 Posted November 7, 2006 I largely agree with Alex's comments above. I'm very happy with my M8 but accept that it has issues that may need addressing. This means there is the annoying possibility that I will have to send my camera back to Solms and be without it for a number of weeks/months. The emergence of the banding/streaking/green blob/magenta cast/dodgy white balance issues will have clearly taken the wind out of Leica's sails. The company needs to be careful. Leica's marketing strategy has allowed the press and internet to whip up a frenzy of expectation in advance of the launch of the M8 but there is a danger that the current 'issues' are going to dominate the agenda going forward. I'm sure advance orders for this camera have been way above Leica's estimates but I'd be surprised if a number of those waiting in line are not beginning to rethink their decision. This applies particularly to those who are not already M system users - a market segment that Leica really needs to court if they are going to prosper in the medium to long term. It's always much easier to damage a reputation than repair one. I think that the immediate finding of the banding/streaking issue correlates with my recent experience in using a pre-release Leica, just 10 days before the M8 was released for sale. I was not allowed to use my own SD card! I wasn't allowed to copy any images on to anything to take the files with me. I was so surprised that this was so strict. I was told that this is not the final firmware and their might be other things being "finalized". Now I was so impressed with the beautiful build of the M8, the intuitive controls and the fact that it used all the great leica 35mm lenses, that once I saw the first beautiful image on the LCD, I already wanted one for myself. So I don't think that this issue is new to Leica. I just think they imagined they would ride it out and meanwhile get the next firmware work accelerated. They didn't want to miss Photokina and the promised release! In spite of these issues, I believe the camera is not really flawed. It's just like an engine that needs proper timing . The apparent purple, as has been said, might be really grey, made to seem a hue by virtue of the C1 D8 profile. So a combination of a few adjustments should take care of the issues. I expect they already have ideas to counter the problem. I wouldn't let this worry anyone in the slightest. As far as honesty of reviewers, it is hard to say. One has to judge each person on their record over a long period. I know that I enjoy Sean's Writing and I trust him completely. His report is the one that counts for me. This still doesn't mean one would not have to still be alert. Of course. I certainly would be reticent to report a flaw that one finds in a review, without being certain about it, since the consequence of bad reports made by error is damage to the very photographic equipment that we need to foster. However, that's just my own behavior. Asher http://www.openphotographyforums.com Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hyper67 Posted November 7, 2006 Share #17 Posted November 7, 2006 Even though I agree that both reviewers are not guilty of anything here, I have to say that it is much harder to be objective if neither of them geave a rats *ss about the leica brand or what have you...thats why I said that our testers are usually people that are not related to the company or product that we sell... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
carstenw Posted November 7, 2006 Share #18 Posted November 7, 2006 In spite of these issues, I believe the camera is not really flawed. It's just like an engine that needs proper timing . The apparent purple, as has been said, might be really grey, made to seem a hue by virtue of the C1 D8 profile. So a combination of a few adjustments should take care of the issues. This is not the case. I went to my Leica store this morning, and reproduced it on their camera. He set the white balance on a piece of paper I held in my hands, and then took a picture. My jacket and sweater (both pitch-black) were dark purple, everything else was perfect. This is even visible on the screen on the back of the camera. The magenta cast in the picture of the colour checker may be fixed with a different profile, but not the magenta cast of my clothes. The guy in the store was *very* surprised when he looked at his camera. Some black details on the furniture in the back of the store were really black, but an office chair was also purple. It has to do with the material. I tend to support the infrared theory. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdai Posted November 7, 2006 Share #19 Posted November 7, 2006 I guess Sean and Michael both had different samples ... The Italian reviewer Roberto Ottavi was able to observe the issues in his review and he might already have answer to the mysteries. I have evidenced the problem in my M8 Full test review published onLeicapassion - magazine on-line on the b&w section or downloadable also from RPO The problem is generated from the microlenses layer applied over the sensor and he is not dismissable. Unfortunately. Bye Roberto Piero Ottavi - Venice - Italy Read post #25 in this thread: http://www.leica-camera-user.com/digital-forum/8642-m8-streaking-hi-iso-2.html?highlight=microlenses Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guy_mancuso Posted November 7, 2006 Share #20 Posted November 7, 2006 I said this a couple days ago that it maybe the microlenses. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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