jaapv Posted June 22, 2009 Share #21 Posted June 22, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) I am not complaining about the Leica service. But I fear that Leica as a company stands the risk of going bankrupt if most of their M8s and m8.2s must be called in for repair. ALL of the Leica M8 I know of that has been sold to Norwegian customers I know have had this line problem and have taken the trip tp Solms etc. Actually all the M8s I know have had the line problem! This 'line problem' must be a service issue of sorts and a ditto profit killer. No company can make money out of warrant servicing practically all the products it has sold. What is the cause to this problem? Is it a poor sensor? Or something else? I have read a lot of speculation about it here at the Leica Forum - but I have not seen any 'official' explanation. With such a service issue, practically including the whole M8 fleet out there, - and now also the M8.2 - is of such a magnitude that Leica should come up with an explanation. Your experience must be as statistically valid as mine - None of the M8's I know of - about twenty of those five in my family- have had this problem, in fact none of the issues this forum is flooded with. It must be the climate Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted June 22, 2009 Posted June 22, 2009 Hi jaapv, Take a look here Vertical line problem - in praise of FFordes and Leica UK. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
dcuthbert Posted June 22, 2009 Share #22 Posted June 22, 2009 I am not complaining about the Leica service. That said; I am NOT disappointed with the Leica service. They fixed my 'line problem' - fast and efficient. And it has not turned up again. So, it should be possible to prevent it. And: What do they do at these 'red line warranty repairs'? Change the sensor? I'm intrigued as to how they fix this as well, anyone know? is it a sensor swap out or something else? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted June 22, 2009 Share #23 Posted June 22, 2009 I guess they just remap the sensor. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shootist Posted June 22, 2009 Share #24 Posted June 22, 2009 I'm intrigued as to how they fix this as well, anyone know? is it a sensor swap out or something else? On both of my M8's they replaced the sensors. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
perb Posted June 22, 2009 Share #25 Posted June 22, 2009 I'm intrigued as to how they fix this as well, anyone know? is it a sensor swap out or something else? It varies. Virtually all working sensors delivered have some pixel defects, so they all use a map to cancel those pixels. The map is individually measured and stored in the camera. So when you buy a new M8, take a photograph and inspect it, and decide that it is perfect, you can be sure that there is some imperfection which is not visible because the M8 mapped it out. My M8 developed a vertical line, but my sensor was not replaced because they could remap it. I think some cameras (Pentax?) can even be remapped by the owner; no need to send it in as long as the owner feels comfortable doing it himself If a sensor develops a "hot pixel" and/or a vertical line that cannot be effectively masked by a new map then there is no alternative but to replace the sensor. The problem is that the tiny pixels made by some photosensitive semiconductor that has been doped in some complex process are not long term stable (the universe as a whole is not long term stable). Even if the probability of spontaneous change is low, there are many pixels, and I want to own and use my M8 for many years, so there is a small but significant chance that my M8 will develop more hot pixels and /or vertical lines in the future, long after end of warranty (which is only months away now). In addition the sensor is subject to cosmic radiation and such that can add to the probability... When my M8 develops a line/pixel and Leica no longer care, I can still fix my photographs by batch processing the DNG's with free software like Pixel Fixer | Hot pixel removal utliity Have a look at that web page. It contains lots of good info, and you will be aware Leica owners are not alone with this problem. Regards Per Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
svllee Posted June 23, 2009 Share #26 Posted June 23, 2009 My M8 Panda purchased in Jan this year has developed a vertical line and green pixel a few days ago, and dread as it is, it has to go back to Germany via the dealer Richard Caplan in London. Much as I hate to say it, this is my first 'return to base' camera, having owned several digital models from other makes, both consumer and professional specced cameras. The serial number is a 'highish' one starting 313.... and I thought that Leica has ironed out the sensor problems, or is it Kodak? I have no way of telling when it was assembled, so its hard to say if it s a late model or not. I had hoped for a 'zero defect' body, having waited over 2 years to get into the M8 game. Will keep you all posted as to how long it would take to see it back. The dealer said it would be like 3 -4 weeks (!) which is a bummer as I have a trip to Paris in July. I really wonder what the failure rate is for the sensor. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dcuthbert Posted July 21, 2009 Share #27 Posted July 21, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) Interestingly enough, I got mine back and it's not the same camera as I sent out. The serial number is correct, albeit it looking brand new but the body is not the one I sent in (unless they removed all the dents, replaced all the parts and gave it a fresh lick of paint, oh and made it all 100% brand new) It works perfectly now, so I'm a happy man Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shootist Posted July 21, 2009 Share #28 Posted July 21, 2009 Interestingly enough, I got mine back and it's not the same camera as I sent out. The serial number is correct, albeit it looking brand new but the body is not the one I sent in (unless they removed all the dents, replaced all the parts and gave it a fresh lick of paint, oh and made it all 100% brand new) It works perfectly now, so I'm a happy man Have you checeked the serial # that is recorded in the image file and is it the same as what is on the hot shoe? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dcuthbert Posted July 21, 2009 Share #29 Posted July 21, 2009 both the same serial. If that's the case, then the body has been replace for sure, I dropped it in Burma, it was battered in a township in South Africa and then dropped again back in London. The war wounds were there... not that im complaining Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hishma Posted September 24, 2009 Share #30 Posted September 24, 2009 Anyone have any idea how much this fix is likely to cost if your warranty is expired? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shootist Posted September 24, 2009 Share #31 Posted September 24, 2009 Anyone have any idea how much this fix is likely to cost if your warranty is expired? This is a known problem and should be covered even if the camera is out of warranty. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyexist Posted October 10, 2009 Share #32 Posted October 10, 2009 I had the Red Line problem as well with my M8 demo. However It seems to have gone away! I wonder if one of the firmware updates included a remapping function? Any thoughts on this possibility? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shootist Posted October 10, 2009 Share #33 Posted October 10, 2009 I had the Red Line problem as well with my M8 demo. However It seems to have gone away! I wonder if one of the firmware updates included a remapping function? Any thoughts on this possibility? Shoot a few shot at high ISO, 1250 or 2500, and look real close. No firmware update can fix this problem. With both of My M8's that had this problem the line wasn't that noticeable at lower ISO's, 160 & 320, but it was still there if I knew where to look for it, pixel count. I took a shoot at 2500, set the Photoshop rulers to pixels, found the line and recorded the exact pixel row/s number/s. Went back into lower ISO shots and looked at the pixel row/s (mine covered more then one pixel row) and I could see the line. If your camera is still under warranty send it in ASAP. If it's out of warranty send it in anyway and reference this thread and other that deal with this problem. Stating in the letter you send with the camera that this repair should be covered under defective product liability. In other words for FREE. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyexist Posted October 11, 2009 Share #34 Posted October 11, 2009 Shoot a few shot at high ISO, 1250 or 2500, and look real close.No firmware update can fix this problem. With both of My M8's that had this problem the line wasn't that noticeable at lower ISO's, 160 & 320, but it was still there if I knew where to look for it, pixel count. I took a shoot at 2500, set the Photoshop rulers to pixels, found the line and recorded the exact pixel row/s number/s. Went back into lower ISO shots and looked at the pixel row/s (mine covered more then one pixel row) and I could see the line. If your camera is still under warranty send it in ASAP. If it's out of warranty send it in anyway and reference this thread and other that deal with this problem. Stating in the letter you send with the camera that this repair should be covered under defective product liability. In other words for FREE. Yep, you're correct Shootist - I do see the red line problem at higher isos. I will take your advice and send the body to Leica in NJ. Do you know of any one person in particular I should contact at Leica? Thanks, Brian. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shootist Posted October 11, 2009 Share #35 Posted October 11, 2009 Yep, you're correct Shootist - I do see the red line problem at higher isos. I will take your advice and send the body to Leica in NJ. Do you know of any one person in particular I should contact at Leica? Thanks, Brian. No not really. The person I talk to the most is Sarah Mayville, EXT. 223, but I don't think she has anything to do with the actual repairs of the camera. Make sure you print out the images where the line is visible, increasing the contrast can help with this, and send them in with the camera. You can also include the exact pixel location of where the line is, just set the Photoshop rulers to Pixels to get this and zoom in to get the exact location. Also look at some of your lower ISO shots, 640 & 320 at that pixel location and if you see the line at all print those out also and or include crops of those images on a CD with the camera. I always include a letter, I can't count the number of letters I've written to Leica NJ about M8 service, explaining just what is wrong. As I said before if the camera is out of warranty reference this thread and the others that are about this line problem, there are many threads with many posts in each. This is a very well known problem, even if Leica refuses to ackowledge it, and should be covered free of charge. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyexist Posted October 12, 2009 Share #36 Posted October 12, 2009 Thanks Shootist. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dcuthbert Posted February 15, 2010 Share #37 Posted February 15, 2010 Something tells me this M8 isn't happy. Not even 6 months after getting it back from Germany and having shot less than 100 frames, the annoying green banding issue has occurred (no heavy light near the edges of the sensor, i checked this) This now leaves me in an awkward situation. I don't trust the M8 anymore to use it on a job. It's just not reliable enough. Waiting to hear what Leica UK says, but can see yet another trip back to the factory to have this solved. bah! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bhomatude Posted February 15, 2010 Share #38 Posted February 15, 2010 My M8 was out of warranty and Leica NJ replaced the sensor a few months ago due to the vertical line issue. No questions asked. Great service - As it should be, with the cost of the camera. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted February 15, 2010 Share #39 Posted February 15, 2010 Something tells me this M8 isn't happy. Not even 6 months after getting it back from Germany and having shot less than 100 frames, the annoying green banding issue has occurred (no heavy light near the edges of the sensor, i checked this) . With all due respect, given the cause of the green band, this appears to be impossible. Can you post the example? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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