andym911 Posted November 5, 2006 Share #21 Posted November 5, 2006 Advertisement (gone after registration) Before I add my first comment to this forum, a quick intro. I am using m system for some years and use them for two main areas of photography, Portrait and Wedding& event. I have been debating for a while like many people as to whether to go for M8 and make use of existing glass or, go the 5D route. I will be earning a big slice of my income (the cake however is not so big) from mainly wedding and event photography and due to speed will be investing in digital.I decided for the M8 as it suits my style. Now I would hardly class myself as a Pro as some on this forum, but the camera needs to deliver....period. I have been in high tech industry for the last 20 years and I am aware of product introduction (industrial rather than consumer) and the teething problems that can come with new products. What I see however are more than teething problems, the artifacts shown on this and other forums by first users make me wonder if they are software or hardware related..if software then these can be fixed, if hardware then they can at best be minimized, at worst are here to stay. So in your opinion will Leica be making an acknowledgement statement on these issues (mainly banding) and providing short term fixes or do you beleive that these artig´facts are here to stay and it will be up to the user to find workarounds? The position of Leica on this will certainly influence my purchase or timing of it..... cheers andy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted November 5, 2006 Posted November 5, 2006 Hi andym911, Take a look here Is anyone cancelling their M8 because of issues?. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
leicamr Posted November 5, 2006 Share #22 Posted November 5, 2006 Sean, What lenses are you using on your M8 for your wedding work? Does the M8 have an acoustic histogram like the DMR does? Regards Mark I have my personal M8 here and I certainly would not give it up. I'm shooting a large wedding assignment with one or two M8 bodies and the 5D next weekend. My perspective may be different from some, I realize, because I've been using various M8 bodies since August. Cheers, Sean Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
carstenw Posted November 5, 2006 Share #23 Posted November 5, 2006 While I can understand that those who plan on making a living off this camera starting with delivery are cancelling or delaying their orders, I am not in this situation. I am making a comfortable living off programming, and photography is merely a very serious hobby for me, and has been since I was 12, where I started with an Olympus OM2n. I have arranged for the money to be ready, and will buy one this week if my dealer can deliver one. I am on the list already. The banding issue concerns me, but I firmly believe that Leica will stand behind their camera and fix what needs fixing. I also believe that most of the time the problem won't show up, just sometimes. It is inconceivable that Leica won't stand behind their newest M. This camera has been one of the cornerstones of photography its entire existence, and it has always been, and will likely always be, the cornerstone of Leica Camera. I do not wish to needlessly put pressure on Leica by doubting that. I am certain that people are working overtime to try to isolate the problem and find a fix, as we speak. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mhoutman Posted November 5, 2006 Share #24 Posted November 5, 2006 no !! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted November 6, 2006 Share #25 Posted November 6, 2006 Actually I have put my order on hold. I will end up with one after some of the teething issues have been resolved. I have been awaiting pictures that tell the full potential of the camera...in my estimation I have seen three out of the fifty or so posted that show its true potential. Care to submit a few Marc? Until Leica addresses this issue with a firmware update or two I will keep using my 5D and Leica R and Contax lenses.... I had the original Canon 1D which had banding issues but I never experienced them. Sold my 1DsMkII in anticipation of this camera so I am sold...just a little tired of being the proverbial beta tester. While I wait I am placing an order for an Imacon scanner....need something to pass the time. Bob Moore Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guy_mancuso Posted November 6, 2006 Share #26 Posted November 6, 2006 I will take anyones place in line waiting. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrism Posted November 6, 2006 Share #27 Posted November 6, 2006 Advertisement (gone after registration) But you can't have my place, Guy: I'm not cancelling. The guys who actually have cameras are saying maybe 1 in 100 images show banding, and I'm content with those odds. Chris Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guy_mancuso Posted November 6, 2006 Share #28 Posted November 6, 2006 First the WB issue is a non issue in my opinion , there is no camera that is perfect at AWB some maybe better and fact is the may not always be right either . these are sensitive to WB changes. If you want a perfect WB or a consistent one than set it to daylight or tungsten because the camera will always read to that color temp than do a WB in post for the whole shooting session. or create one yourself shot a white card and maintain that setting. This is probably the best to do anyway for jpeg shooters. Since they are not going to post processing. The DMR at double the price is off, not many here talking about that. I WB every different lighting condition or find something in the scene to WB against been doing that forever and worst case find a black and WB off that. The other issues is folks maybe having issues with C1 and how that works . You need to set the destination of work space and the right profile for the camera than that needs to be in PS also and all that needs to be the same . monitors need calibration and things like this. This is color management and if your off a touch than your just flat out going to have a hard time. Like I said 10 times already this stuff takes time to learn and C1 and working with it just takes time to getting used to the program. i get amazing results from the DMR with WB issues. Just need to learn to work these things correctly. Not trying to offend anyone here but this is not shoot slide film and drop it off at the lab. WE ARE the Kodachrome processing machine and that tolerence is a 1/8 of a degree, so folks needs to learn this stuff. The banding issue at 1250 ISO into headlights or street lights is something that I really need to see for myself and figure it out. This could be the cause of several things and yes it is a issue for some folks. I understand the uproar there. I just need this damn thing in my hands so I can analize what is the root cause. I won't cancel my order over this but someone like JR this is a concern to him , so i understand this reluctance to get it today. Also i keep seeing folks have different firmware here also. Not sure what is going on there. i think a couple more days and this may get pinned down a little better and leica will not let this issue just sit there either, i am sure there already looking at this given the conversations that have been going on. I need to read about this some more also, been shooting all last week and missed many of the posts. The trick here is figuring out your flow of things and how everything is tied in together I just hope there is not mass hysteria here. In recent history i bought and was the first or so to get the 1dsMKII , 1dMKII and the DMR so being first out of the gate brings new issues to the plate but there is always a fix for these things also. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
kidigital Posted November 6, 2006 Share #29 Posted November 6, 2006 I'm handing over my credit card info tomorrow for Tuesday M8 delivery. No second thoughts or angst here. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwilliamsphotography Posted November 6, 2006 Share #30 Posted November 6, 2006 I am not seeing the issues others are. I've tried to duplicate it without much success. But that doesn't mean it isn't there. I just haven't encountered it yet ... at least not to any degree that I haven't seen on my Canons occasionally. I haven't forwarded a penny for this camera yet. I'll wait awhile to send the money to see if it's a sensor issue. It's pretty amazing what can be done with firmware and software ... anyone using Flexcolor for the Imacons knows this. Meanwhile, the stuff I'm shooting is looking pretty good. Freaking beautiful 8X10s which is 90% of my wedding business output. Love the color and wide angle shots that aren't all distorted like those from the Canons. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
c6gowin Posted November 6, 2006 Share #31 Posted November 6, 2006 I admit that I am concerned about the issues others have identified, but I am going to follow through with my purchase tomorrow. I know there will be growing pains with the M8. I am ok with that and, in a way, look forward to the learning curve. I am confident that Leica will make good on problems that arise - they have too much riding on this camera. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
humanized_form Posted November 6, 2006 Share #32 Posted November 6, 2006 anyone with experience... was the D200 and Canon banding ever determined to be from certain manufacturing runs? later cameras didn't have the same issues? i just can't believe Leica would ever intentionally release a camera with a known image quality issue like that. they have too much riding on the success of the M8. kevin Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie Roberts Posted November 6, 2006 Share #33 Posted November 6, 2006 {snipped}The banding issue at 1250 ISO into headlights or street lights is something that I really need to see for myself and figure it out. This could be the cause of several things and yes it is a issue for some folks. I understand the uproar there. I just need this damn thing in my hands so I can analize what is the root cause. I won't cancel my order over this but someone like JR this is a concern to him , so i understand this reluctance to get it today. {snipped}. The banding issue is very disconcerting / troubling to me. I wish it wasn't, but it is. I can live with crummy AWB--I'm using a RAW workflow anyway and would always set it regardless. The DMR is awful, as Guy says, at this. I have to mention that even with the first few DNGs out on the net--some posted here--that weird ghosting / banding was evident (coming from a backlit window in the high ISO shots). I'd assumed that was because of pre-production firmware / or even a pre-production camera... Now I don't know what to do. I was, like Guy, an early 1ds2 adopter and lived through the "this thing is dropping files" stuff... and worse..."this thing is scrambling Lexar cards"... A lot of my work is low light and one of the key reasons I bother with Leica glass is so I can shoot without worrying about strong light 130 degrees to my lens position. It sounds like classic short light here could induce this "banding." We'll see what Leica says about this in the next day or two. If they say "we'll fix it, don't worry"--well, then I won't Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
adan Posted November 6, 2006 Share #34 Posted November 6, 2006 If it were possible, these issues (except the finder - which isn't an issue to me) make me MORE eager to get my M8 - so that I can try my own hand at RAW color calibration and reproducing the banding. I'm the perfect fool for testing fool-proof devices. Plus - having looked at a wide range of M8 images across the web, I'm getting a strong feeling that the banding may be due to a bad batch of sensors - and that not all the sensors are bad. I've seen a fair number of images that should have banded and didn't. The sooner I know whether "my" M8 has a banding issue, the sooner I can decide what to do about it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guy_mancuso Posted November 6, 2006 Share #35 Posted November 6, 2006 Andy you make a good point reason i said let's not freak out yet , it maybe a couple bad sensors out there that can't handle this blooming effect. I need one in my hands but overexposure objects like a light by 3 or more stops than any of this can happen and especially with a High ISO becuase the sensor gets very sensitive to light at these ISO, it is trying to gather as much light as possible. Now Andy you bring up a good point if area or images are not always doing it in situations that may warrant the banding than it could very well be a firmware issue also. Now i wish there was a firmware that you can download and reinstall it because sometimes the firmware can get corrupted and can be corrected by reinstalling it, this is a stretch but worth a try. Also we need to pinpoint exactly when it happens with what lens, shutter speed, aperture and so on and on. So in all of this we need to find the common elements. Really this needs some really good testing on one of the affected camera's to see where and why this is happening. Does it go away when you stop down more and keep the same exposure value? Does it happen only on direct or indirect light like a reflection? Is it 2 stops , 4 stops etc. that it happens. Only at 1250 , not at 3200? See there are many area's that need to be tested. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
robsteve Posted November 6, 2006 Share #36 Posted November 6, 2006 See there are many area's that need to be tested. I asked Leica NJ to pack a M8 in the box with your R9 coming back from repair Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gogopix Posted November 6, 2006 Share #37 Posted November 6, 2006 from what I have seen, even if I had not pre-ordered, I would be ordering now. Only issue is (Kurt, David et al) how far behind you guys am I at Dale? LOL Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sean_reid Posted November 6, 2006 Share #38 Posted November 6, 2006 Sean, What lenses are you using on your M8 for your wedding work? Does the M8 have an acoustic histogram like the DMR does? Regards Mark Hi Mark, It varies but next weekend it is likely to be two or more from this set: 24/2.8 Asph, CV 28/1.9, 35/1.4 Asph, CV Nokton 50/1.5. I'll have two M8 bodies with me. There's no sound warning for the histogram and I, personally, wouldn't want one. Cheers, Sean Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sean_reid Posted November 6, 2006 Share #39 Posted November 6, 2006 While I can understand that those who plan on making a living off this camera starting with delivery are cancelling or delaying their orders. Not all of us who shoot professionally are cancelling/returning. I have no desire at all to give up my M8. Cheers, Sean Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guy_mancuso Posted November 6, 2006 Share #40 Posted November 6, 2006 Personally i am very excited to get one in my hands even with all the bruises. i love the punishment. LOL Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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