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Is anyone cancelling their M8 because of issues?

John Maio

By John Maio
in Digital Forum

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Bob Ross

Bob Ross

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WE ARE the Kodachrome processing machine and that tolerence is a 1/8 of a degree, so folks needs to learn this stuff.

 

Well said Guy. When you mentioned "destination", I remembered that someone had "M8" in that box. That brought back Michael Reichman's color space graphs. If a monitor or software was trying to represent that large M8 color space, there could, indeed, be some unusual special color affects.

Since you have been into Phase One's Capture One, can you comment on the "Banding suppresion" tool on the sharpening/NR control screen? I have only read about PO/CO in Shutterbug's article and their illustration shows the slider set to medium for apparently a Canon 300D (?). Those here not seeing banding and using Capture One might find that control defaulted to medium.

Oh, and I remember the joys of trying to keep my color process at a constant temp. in a hobby setting.....:o

Bob

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Guest guy_mancuso

Guest guy_mancuso

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Bob reason i want some files or camera to see what raw procesing can do to eliminate some of this banding issue. C1 does have a banding slider along with noise supression. On the DMR the setting or default is low. now maybe with the M8 and the higer ISO that setting may need to go highly. Certainly sounds like it. Is there a little program around for the Mac side to do screen captures , maybe I can get folks setup correctly in C1 and PS to give them a head start. It is confusing for some folks . Is this banding issue with short working spaces like srgb or is it happening in like prophoto color space at 16 bit or 8 bit. Has anyone tried a M8 file that has banding in a different camera profile.

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sean_reid

sean_reid

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Believe me, I tried the C1 banding suppression cranked all the way to its maximum. It did nothing. I have a feeling this is a sensor issue or a firmware issue.

 

I think that the light streaking is not banding but a different phenomena. More on that when I know more.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

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Guest guy_mancuso

Guest guy_mancuso

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Believe me, I tried the C1 banding suppression cranked all the way to its maximum. It did nothing. I have a feeling this is a sensor issue or a firmware issue.

 

 

I also have another theory also and it could be the micro lenses on the outside of the sensor. so are these with or without coded lenses and is the coding on or off. My other question was only at the sides and horizontal

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J_Brittenson

J_Brittenson

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If a monitor or software was trying to represent that large M8 color space, there could, indeed, be some unusual special color affects.

It's called 'expansion'. Expansion on the tonal (luminance/density) scale results in a flatter appearance, although the contrast (black:white ratio in reproduction) is the same. Expansion on the chroma scales (*a*B) is the same, except the appearance is desaturated overall but with fully saturated endpoints. It just takes more to reach those endpoints. You'd use expansion in gamuts just like with film. It makes it easy to produce images with smooth, desaturated appearing skin tones that retain their subtlety, while also including highly saturated components (fabrics etc). With a smaller input gamut (less expansive) the camera or film would clip those saturated image components so they no longer stand out against the less saturated parts.

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clayh

clayh

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Nope. See the banding thread. I get it with coded lens and the coding turned on. Offending light is in the center of the frame. Underexposed by 2EV. Bands still occur.

 

I also have another theory also and it could be the micro lenses on the outside of the sensor. so are these with or without coded lenses and is the coding on or off. My other question was only at the sides and horizontal
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ho_co

ho_co

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Is there a little program around for the Mac side to do screen captures , maybe I can get folks setup correctly in C1 and PS to give them a head start.

Guy--

Screen capture on OS X:

 

Shift-Cmd-4. Generates a cursor reminiscent of a rifle sight. Hold down mouse button and drag to select the area you want to capture. When you release the mouse button, the system puts a PDF of that area on the desktop.

 

OR

 

Shift-Cmd-4, then Spacebar. Selects current active window. Click mouse to put a PDF of that window on the desktop.

 

OR

 

Shift-Cmd-3. Puts a PDF of full current screen on desktop.

 

Good idea. I'd love to get some guidance on C1 from someone who understands it! :)

 

--HC

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ho_co

ho_co

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was the D200 and Canon banding ever determined to be from certain manufacturing runs? later cameras didn't have the same issues?

Kevin--

As for Nikon, see: Nikon confirm D200 banding, fix available: Digital Photography Review. Problem was with some early cameras only. My D200 is relatively early but free of the problem. Nonetheless, the problem description is surprisingly similar to what we're seeing here: Only orthogonal (though parallel to short side of frame), only when highlights were grossly overexposed.

 

My experience doesn't extend to the Canon problems, but some on this forum say they were also from certain runs.

 

--HC

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rvaubel

rvaubel

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Thanks Howard i will start a thread on this tomorrow and give some pointers for C1 , it may help some folks understand the setting related to PS also. Maybe someone can send me a raw M8 also . Use YouSendIt: The Leader in File Delivery. to guymancuso at cox.net

 

Welcome aboard Guy! Having your knowledge available will be a great asset to this forum. I use to only lurk at Fred's because he insisted that Yahoo addresses were 2nd class and holders couldn't be members. Gee wiz, was he strict! I like it better over here anyway.

 

Rex

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scott kirkpatrick

scott kirkpatrick

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That brought back Michael Reichman's color space graphs. If a monitor or software was trying to represent that large M8 color space, there could, indeed, be some unusual special color affects.

 

Don't read too much into the large apparent gamut that appears for the M8 in Reichman's article. He says in his article that "Dr. Know" (Thomas Knoll) has cautioned him that this data should not be viewed as expressing the actual camera performance. I checked with Norm Koren (who has written Gamutvision, a program which lets you understand printer gamut and profiles), and Norm also cautions that the data which Reichman plots (the icc profile from C1) includes an unknown, possibly large, region of colors which the camera will never produce. Those colors are there simply to produce a transformation into an output color space, and stating a large gamut could be one way to reduce color saturation at the output stage of the process.

 

The M8 may have unusual sensitivities (for example, high IR sensitivity has been claimed), but the C1 profile isn't the way to see them.

 

scott

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Bob Ross

Bob Ross

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Don't read too much into the large apparent gamut that appears for the M8 in Reichman's article. He says in his article that "Dr. Know" (Thomas Knoll) has cautioned him that this data should not be viewed as expressing the actual camera performance. I checked with Norm Koren (who has written Gamutvision, a program which lets you understand printer gamut and profiles), and Norm also cautions that the data which Reichman plots (the icc profile from C1) includes an unknown, possibly large, region of colors which the camera will never produce. Those colors are there simply to produce a transformation into an output color space, and stating a large gamut could be one way to reduce color saturation at the output stage of the process.

 

The M8 may have unusual sensitivities (for example, high IR sensitivity has been claimed), but the C1 profile isn't the way to see them.

 

scott

Thanks Scott,

I remember when the reality of cameras having larger color spaces than we usually operate with, came out about the Minolta Dimage 5 & 7. That took me a while to digest at the time:o It is a case of not having a good "film experience" about mapping color spaces that got me. Just try mapping Agfachrome to Kodachrome in a color darkroom:rolleyes: Anyway it is slowly sinking in.

The Kodak KAF-10500 sensor is different, in that the Red quantum efficiency is lower that other KAF sensors, which might have something to do with the saturation/attention applied to reds. I think Sean's label of "streaking" is more correct than banding, as it certainly doesn't look like examples of banding from the early DSLRs or the recent D200. Since it happens at higher ISOs it may be something to do with the amplification/gain up processes.

Bob

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woodyspedden

woodyspedden

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For sure I am not cancelling. I get mine on Wednesday and I plan to shoot comparisons with the DMR/R9 at a workshop in Arizona. There will be lots of low light shots in the Antelope Canyons so it should be a good test. No bright lights in my work though so won't be able to comment on the banding issues. I also plan to do a comparison of the files processed in C1 3.76 and the new Silkypix 3.0. Should be interesting.

 

Woody

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frc

frc

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My purchase date will be pushed foreward for I think i'm in the danger zone with the amount of available light work I do.

OTOH I'm confident that Leica will one way or an other solve this problem.

It's not only our problem, it's theirs aswell.

Even more theirs actually, they have a reputation to keep up and a factory with many employees to keep running.

Patience is the word.

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