AlanG Posted June 13, 2009 Share #121 Posted June 13, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) Not likely unless Canikon is also planning a larger sensor and a new series of lenses to match. Any commercial photographer who has to shoot a typical range of subjects and styles will not be able to do it all with the limited lens choices and features of the S2. Thus he/she will most likely shoot with a FF DSLR as a supplement to the S2 for extreme w/a, fisheye, longish and long telephoto, fast action, and low light. For instance, a 300 2.8 for a fashion shoot has no match in the S2 system. There's nothing equivalent to the 135 f2, 85 F1.2, 55 F1.2, 35 f1.4, or a 24 f1.4. There are times when one needs a lot of depth of field and a smaller format will make that possible. Plus there are the 45 TS and 90 TS lenses for Nikon and Canon. Canon also has a 17 TSE. (The S2's 30 TS does what a 24 TS does for 35mm.) So one's clients will have to be satisfied with some of the results being less than "S2 quality" unless the photographer works in a fairly narrow way. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted June 13, 2009 Posted June 13, 2009 Hi AlanG, Take a look here S2 to be shown in Paris 06/06. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
AlanG Posted June 13, 2009 Share #122 Posted June 13, 2009 And once again, resolution seems to be the only criteria of image quality nowadays. And a camera needs to be used under optimal conditions (critical focus, tripod, static subject - or maybe fast electronic flash) to get the maximum resolution out of them. Whereas shooting with a smaller format where there may be more depth of field to work with, using IS lenses, and possibly higher ISOs may provide more resolution in some situations. It isn't cut and dry that you'll always get more resolution with a larger camera (assuming comparable or better lenses on the larger camera.) Larger formats just have the potential for more resolution. I found this out when I started shooting interiors on 6x9 instead of on 4x5. I often was able to get a bit more dof on 6x9 so some of the images looked more detailed overall. Now with 35mm format and very short lenses, I can get everything in an interior tack sharp from a foot in front of the lens to infinity. You just can't do that with 4x5. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
markowich Posted June 13, 2009 Share #123 Posted June 13, 2009 and btw, after yesterdays developments (effective cancellation of R, no further development of M), who will dish out 30 000.- euro to a company whose only survival thread is to sell a total of 10.000 S units (plus some M stuff)? they might be dead before having sold 500 units....seems that leica will go the contax and francke&heidecke way. pros need reliability, guarantees that there will be somebody to take care of their gear also in some time to come. only rich amateurs can invest in anything. although the decision to trash R and stop further developing the ancient M rangefinder technology is economically sound, it came much to late, which undermined trust in the support of the company even further. leica clearly overrated their own resources and had to redimension at the moment when they are most vulnerable. it is a pity, another legacy seems to go under. peter Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptomsu Posted June 13, 2009 Share #124 Posted June 13, 2009 and btw, after yesterdays developments (effective cancellation of R, no further development of M), who will dish out 30 000.- euro to a company whose only survival thread is to sell a total of 10.000 S units (plus some M stuff)? they might be dead before having sold 500 units....seems that leica will go the contax and francke&heidecke way. pros need reliability, guarantees that there will be somebody to take care of their gear also in some time to come. only rich amateurs can invest in anything.although the decision to trash R and stop further developing the ancient M rangefinder technology is economically sound, it came much to late, which undermined trust in the support of the company even further. leica clearly overrated their own resources and had to redimension at the moment when they are most vulnerable. it is a pity, another legacy seems to go under. peter Peter sorry for my ignorance (did not follow very close lately), but what are you referring to when mentioning YESTERDAY effective cancellation of R and no further development M ??? Thanks for clarification. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pascal_meheut Posted June 13, 2009 Share #125 Posted June 13, 2009 Peter sorry for my ignorance (did not follow very close lately), but what are you referring to when mentioning YESTERDAY effective cancellation of R and no further development M ??? Do not feel sorry, it happened only in his world. In this reality, we will have another M digital and a solution to use R lenses. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdai Posted June 13, 2009 Share #126 Posted June 13, 2009 Peter sorry for my ignorance (did not follow very close lately), but what are you referring to when mentioning YESTERDAY effective cancellation of R and no further development M ??? Thanks for clarification. You probably has only bookmarked the S2 forum, Peter ... Peter M. was referring to the "No R10, No FF M9 Yet .." thread IMO. http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/digital-forum/89060-hessenpark-news-official-no-r10-no.html who will dish out 30 000.- euro to a company whose only survival thread is to sell a total of 10.000 S units The 10k sales volume is probably only an educated guess derived from past sales records of medium format and high end 35mm markets, the new niche is certainly untested by anyone, it can be good, and there are chances it may be even worse. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
markowich Posted June 13, 2009 Share #127 Posted June 13, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) Do not feel sorry, it happened only in his world. In this reality, we will have another M digital and a solution to use R lenses. i come more and more to the conclusion that many members of this forum live in a totally different world, inhabited only by leica fan boys/girls. in that world the m9 will be reality soon and the adequate R solution also. unfortunately nobody else will realize. peter Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pascal_meheut Posted June 13, 2009 Share #128 Posted June 13, 2009 Whoa, what an answer. First, we have the kindergarten level answer : "I do not live in an different world like you said, you do" Second, we have the very common "I do not have a point so let's call everybody who does not agree with me a Leica fan, failing to notice that this is Leica forum". And finally, let's extend my opinion to the whole world with the "nobody else will realize"... It would be quite impressive by itself if it was not always the same pattern by the same kind of person. But here, failing to build a point in so many ways but in such a short sentence is really something. Congrats somehow Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
markowich Posted June 13, 2009 Share #129 Posted June 13, 2009 i apologize to the other forum members for picking up your provocations. better let you rant away. peter Whoa, what an answer. First, we have the kindergarten level answer : "I do not live in an different world like you said, you do" Second, we have the very common "I do not have a point so let's call everybody who does not agree with me a Leica fan, failing to notice that this is Leica forum". And finally, let's extend my opinion to the whole world with the "nobody else will realize"... It would be quite impressive by itself if it was not always the same pattern by the same kind of person. But here, failing to build a point in so many ways but in such a short sentence is really something. Congrats somehow Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
R10dreamer Posted June 14, 2009 Share #130 Posted June 14, 2009 I think part of the angst in this forum is the continued rumor and mis-information that is constantly being put out there. Leica would do itself a great favor by stating some facts and clearing the field of misinformation up. The economy sucks but there will be a 2010, 2011, 2012, etc. etc. and smart companies still must plan for the future. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
adan Posted June 15, 2009 Share #131 Posted June 15, 2009 AlanG: My immediate reaction to this sentence "Any commercial photographer who has to shoot a typical range of subjects and styles will not be able to do it all with the limited lens choices and features of the S2." was - what a perfect definition of a "hack". The photographers who count have their style, not "a range of styles" E.G. THE RICHARD AVEDON FOUNDATION Welcome to the Official Website of Victor Skrebneski Photography Irving Penn at Photography-now.net Fortunately the "300 f/2.8" look for fashion, which was a bonanza for hacks, as they could all run out and buy that look for themselves without needing much talent, has been passé for over a decade - except maybe in the Sports Illustrated Swimsuit Issue. Nikon 300/2.8 AF lens - photo.net The up and coming fashionistas won't necessarily have any need for a 300 f/2.8, because they don't copy styles, they invent them. Andrea Klarin Photographer FASHION PHOTOGRAPHER RICHARD WARREN Raya Photographer: Creative Director, Fashion & Beauty photography, advertising campaigns for cosmetics & jewelry brands James Hickey Studio - Los Angeles Fashion, Beauty, and Glamour Photography And of course this guy, who doesn't appear hampered by the lack of a 300 f/2.8: LEICA Camera AG - Robert Grischek Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanG Posted June 15, 2009 Share #132 Posted June 15, 2009 AlanG: My immediate reaction to this sentence "Any commercial photographer who has to shoot a typical range of subjects and styles will not be able to do it all with the limited lens choices and features of the S2." was - what a perfect definition of a "hack". So does that mean the S2 will appeal to hacks who like to have a limited choice of lenses? Commercial photography is often about problem solving. It is not about having one style and just doing that forever. Some artists can make a living doing that. Most working photographers can't. Did you know that David Lean had Panasonic make a special lens that was only used one time in one scene of Lawrence of Arabia? What if a photographer has a vision for a photograph that can't be made with the S2? And if you are a high end product shooter you might need longer T/S lenses. Others need special lenses for their style or to solve a requirement of the assignment. What if you are an architectural photographer and you are trying to shoot a tight detail or have to shoot a project from across a lake? Or maybe you want to show the entire room in one shot. Lenses are what gives a commercial photographer and an artist various options for fulfilling their vision. Do you think there will be an underwater housing for the S2 any time soon? Do you think many photographers will be able to use an S2 for all of their photography needs? As I wrote, I think most shooters will have to supplement it with a DSLR, especially when the S2 system only has 4 lenses to start. So their clients will get a mix of resolutions. The reality is the fewer options, the fewer sales for the S2 whether it is marketed to hacks or the "elite." There is no escaping that. I had dinner with Skrebneski once back around 1988. I asked him what he uses for location lighting. He said, "I find the location that has the lighting." Good for him but most of us can't work that way. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andreas_thomsen Posted June 15, 2009 Share #133 Posted June 15, 2009 Andrea Klarin Photographer FASHION PHOTOGRAPHER RICHARD WARREN Raya Photographer: Creative Director, Fashion & Beauty photography, advertising campaigns for cosmetics & jewelry brands James Hickey Studio - Los Angeles Fashion, Beauty, and Glamour Photography i don't think any of these fantastic phptographers will use the s2. they want to work with professionals on all levels and leica is such a boutique selling cameras and lenses made for dentists and laywers and porsche drivers. the advertisement of Leica and Robert Grischek reminds me to some of these funny 70' ads. no communication idea at - all just a testimonial : ”...well i am really surprised about your product...” sorry thats too simple....lol cheers andy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulmoore Posted June 15, 2009 Share #134 Posted June 15, 2009 AlanG: My immediate reaction to this sentence "Any commercial photographer who has to shoot a typical range of subjects and styles will not be able to do it all with the limited lens choices and features of the S2." was - what a perfect definition of a "hack". The photographers who count have their style, not "a range of styles" E.G. THE RICHARD AVEDON FOUNDATION Welcome to the Official Website of Victor Skrebneski Photography Irving Penn at Photography-now.net Fortunately the "300 f/2.8" look for fashion, which was a bonanza for hacks, as they could all run out and buy that look for themselves without needing much talent, has been passé for over a decade - except maybe in the Sports Illustrated Swimsuit Issue. Nikon 300/2.8 AF lens - photo.net The up and coming fashionistas won't necessarily have any need for a 300 f/2.8, because they don't copy styles, they invent them. Andrea Klarin Photographer FASHION PHOTOGRAPHER RICHARD WARREN Raya Photographer: Creative Director, Fashion & Beauty photography, advertising campaigns for cosmetics & jewelry brands James Hickey Studio - Los Angeles Fashion, Beauty, and Glamour Photography And of course this guy, who doesn't appear hampered by the lack of a 300 f/2.8: LEICA Camera AG - Robert Grischek I think a "hack" can be a photographer with a singe lens or the whole shooting-works..or none and just live in armchair typing away. and conversly a master can be someone who shoots with extreme tele's to extreme wide lenses or has made his mark with a single lens..most of us are between these two, clearly non-hacks. The field of commercial photography is huge and wide..just in the field of fashion/beauty you have a range.. the sports illustrated babe shots for calenders and mags..to international ad campaigns for prada..and the guy who is shooting the prada shot may one day want a retro 80s saramoon style the next day do a avedon inspired shot for walmart campaign..it happens, fashion is always changing and a wide kit opens up possibilities ..lets face it, the photoworld is full of non-hacks and a few masters..I am not too concerned or interested in the few hacks out there. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanG Posted June 15, 2009 Share #135 Posted June 15, 2009 Did you know that David Lean had Panasonic make a special lens that was only used one time in one scene of Lawrence of Arabia? I meant to write "Panavision." (Freudian slip?) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andybarton Posted June 15, 2009 Author Share #136 Posted June 15, 2009 Kubrick had a lens specially made for "Barry Lyndon" IIRC, it was a f0.9 Anything is possible if you are prepared to pay enough money Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
R10dreamer Posted June 15, 2009 Share #137 Posted June 15, 2009 The bottom line is that Leica is causing a lot of angst with all of the (mis)information being bantered about. But, I agree, I can see no way for a large number of photographers to make a living with 3-4 lenses in the new S2 line. Leica is bouncing around like a rubber ball and where rubber balls usually end up is down into a sewer. I really hope they get their act together both strategically and financially. I am getting very very close to just ordering a Hassy and being done with all of this. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guy_mancuso Posted June 15, 2009 Share #138 Posted June 15, 2009 The bottom line is that Leica is causing a lot of angst with all of the (mis)information being bantered about. But, I agree, I can see no way for a large number of photographers to make a living with 3-4 lenses in the new S2 line. Leica is bouncing around like a rubber ball and where rubber balls usually end up is down into a sewer. I really hope they get their act together both strategically and financially. I am getting very very close to just ordering a Hassy and being done with all of this. Something to look at P30+,40+ and P45+ in tests. Expect the same quality of file from a Hassy pretty much, but something to learn from. There here. P40+, P45+ and my P30+ Oh My - The GetDPI Workshop Forums Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlesphoto99 Posted June 15, 2009 Share #139 Posted June 15, 2009 Problem is, as I see it, is that the S2 neither appeals to the (at the moment) economically depressed photo industry or to the "yachting set" (whom many of are economically depressed as well). It's just too much camera for the rich enthusiast, whether they can afford it or not isn't even a factor. Plus no lenses on the used market, at least for a long time. And it doesn't have that same "retro" appeal (and pocketability) that the M8/7/6 etc has. But who knows. Maybe there are 10,000 photographers out there who need a $20K plus camera with normal lens.... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
marknorton Posted June 15, 2009 Share #140 Posted June 15, 2009 I find it very tough to believe there's a market for 10,000 S2's a year. If they sold that many at, say, €10,000 a shot ex factory, they would nearly double Leica Camera's entire sales revenue and that's on bodies alone, before you include lenses and accessories. I think they will do well to sell 1000-2000 cameras in the first year, equivalent to a production rate of about 10/day. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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