georg Posted June 11, 2009 Share #101 Posted June 11, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) I'll absolutely agree that we have to wait for the final judgement of the S2, only a few things can be told already. But is nobody curious about the first big investment into a completely new professional-system which is not a 8fps-press-camera but for all demanding (beauty, nature) pros? Nobody seriously denies the quality possible with Mamiya/Hasselblad but does a 20k$-camera really doesn't need a usable LCD, fast processing, more than f4, 1/4000s & 1/500s flash-sync, robust full-metal design? "Somewhere be between the D3x and the medium format world, closer though to the D3x i suppose. other expectations are clearly unrealistic. " It's technology (CMOS; AA-filter) has nothing to do with the D3X, the S2 is very similar to the P40+ and Rodenstock/Schneider-lenses (MTF, cover-glass as part of the optical path) and from what I've seen that's also true in practical use. Is the P40+ & superior lenses not part of the "medium format world"? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted June 11, 2009 Posted June 11, 2009 Hi georg, Take a look here S2 to be shown in Paris 06/06. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
Overgaard Posted June 11, 2009 Share #102 Posted June 11, 2009 It's funny how these discussions often come to pixels. I think what some are missing, is that pixel sharpness is not all. At least not for the photographer. It might be impressive to blow up a shot and be able to see details. But the interesting thing in terms of IQ is the representation of the subject, not the detail. The 5DII is nice. It is. You can see things in detail when blowing up. And I'm sure you can do the same with the S2. But what I see when I look at Canon files from Mark III is razor sharpness of things in focus. Which is impressive. But when you blow them up, it's a (enhanced?) digital representation that is not really a representation of the subject in fact. It's like a 2D representation, altered to be digitally detailed. So I understand Dough in this. You might blow up a picture to an AD or other client and impress them with the details. But if the 3D feel and the look of real things are not there, it's not going to impress me. And without knowing for sure, I guess that's others viewpoint as well. Here's an interesting example of blow-up where - at least as I see it - you have 3D feel and natural 'acoustic' looking representation of the objects: leica.overgaard.dk - Thorsten Overgaard's Leica Pages - Leica 400m Telyt-R f/6.8 tele lens sample photos For myself, I photograph the way I like it and with the gear I like. And the type of clients and jobs is determined by that. I don't buy or use equipment based on what the clients want. I buy and use equipment based on what I want, and then the clients will have to live with that or find somebody else. I've written about "love factor" before, and if gear doesn't have it, it's not for me. But that is going to be one big factor in the S2 or R10 for me. It's not very business-like to talk about "love factor." It's a bit like when Microsoft's Steve Balmer speaks about the iPhone not being a business phone. Yet people seem to love it, so that's the type of love factor I talk about. Anyways. We can discuss this forever and I look forward to September-October when we can look at love factor, pixels, weight and all. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdai Posted June 11, 2009 Share #103 Posted June 11, 2009 the S2 is very similar to the P40+ and Rodenstock/Schneider-lenses (MTF, cover-glass as part of the optical path) and from what I've seen that's also true in practical use. Is the P40+ & superior lenses not part of the "medium format world"? Sorry, Georg ... but it's just too easy to bust your bubbles again. If the S2's target is the P40+, then it has lost right from the start. Sensor dynamic range: 74 db vs 70.5db, that's 12.5 stops vs. 11.75 stops, P40+ is 3/4 stops better. A/D: 16 bit vs. 14 bit, P40+ wins ... again Software: C1 vs. what ... ACR??? LOL Support: P1 is proven With the P40+ I can upgrade easily by trading in in exchange for a P65+ and only pay for the price difference, with the S2 ... I had to buy a S2.2 or S3 (and wait indefinitely before it really happens)? And I'm not talking about price ... If one is in the market, the choice would be too obvious and too simple. Those who put ergonomics and weather sealing above image quality probably will never take a look at the S2. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdai Posted June 11, 2009 Share #104 Posted June 11, 2009 I've written about "love factor" before, and if gear doesn't have it, it's not for me. But that is going to be one big factor in the S2 or R10 for me. It's not very business-like to talk about "love factor." If love factor is part of your consideration, then all discussion is redundant, Thorsten. Because love is blind. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdai Posted June 11, 2009 Share #105 Posted June 11, 2009 Changing topics a little did anyone notice that Leica's chief operating officer (COO) Stefan Trippe has resigned? Rudolf Spiller, the Chief Executive Officer (CEO) of Leica Camera AG is taking over his duties. The high turnover of senior management does not bode well for Leica and the press release is typical PR BS with no real substance or meat. The annual report has not yet been released but you can be sure when it is you will see more of the real picture of what is happening behind the scenes. Stefan Trippe oversees Leica's product development and supply chain, if I remember correctly it was him who closed the "Maestro" deal with Fujitsu. I hope this change is good for both himself and the company and doesn't necessarily mean any change in the development of the S2 and "S1". Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulmoore Posted June 11, 2009 Share #106 Posted June 11, 2009 I only can back Guy here! It is amazing to see all this wishful thinking about the new and not yet available S System. It is clearly NOT MF, because MF is larger and thus it also needs larger lenses and has a larger body. And gets you already today 60MP files if you desire so. But the real beauty about Phase and Hasselblad MF systems is, that you can choose yourself how far you want to go in terms of quality and resolution. So the price range from entry level 31MP till the top end 60MP is huge and you have plenty of models in between and of course prices With the S System you will only get 1 possibility and you have to go with it for many years to come, before you can even think about any update in terms of new sensor etc from Leica - usually I would rate these intervals in 5 years range best case knowing Leicas past. Meanwhile you will have been able to change backs several times wit the other brands if you wish to do so for whatever reason. And I do not even touch the quality so far, as this has been discussed meanwhile in length already! To understand me right, while I am also intrigued by the S System concept like many others, I must say that I live today, I work today and I need results today - which unfortunately is NOT what Leica stands for today I will give this another shot to try to explain why I think the new "Leica Pro Format" can replace what use to be called MediumFormat and why I am seriously considering it. Commercial photography can be broken into 3 levels of quality/resolution needs..or 2 if you want to simplify.. this use to be handled with the 3 major film formats that evolved over the past 100 years.. small (35mm) medium (120 film) and large ( sheet film) 35mm being a small camera lent itself to editorial work but was not used that much in other commercial areas..were 120 and sheet film dominated. The digital age is here, yet the requirements and end uses have not changed that much.. what fills the needs now are small sensors and large sensors..period. The p45+ or cf39 size backs produces images arguably of sheet film quality, the p65+, cf 39ms or new 50mp and 60mp of hasselblad definetly do. I don't care if you shoot them with a hr rodenstock or a mamyia lens, they replaced and made redundant Large Format film. (because of the improvement of sheet film, commercial 8x10 use fell off before the advent of digital) All current sensors and cameras that are FF 35mm and larger replaced the function of Medium Format..there are too many to list, this explains the great exodus of 120 camera users to the first FF35dslrs, canon. There is no major difference between one of these canon or nikon files and that of say a hasselblad 22 or even 31mp back.. they fill the need of most commercial work, period. Sure a 33mp back will have a bit more resolution than a 22mp back or 24mpsony but again it works for most stuff.. So instead of thinking that the new Leica isn't "Medium Format", try looking at it that 35dslrs have moved up into this level..which they clearly have. If you have pixel peeped a multishot 22mp back like I have, you would no longer hold onto your preconceptions and pigeon holes of what "medium format" is or isn't.. Most professionals that I have known have never relied on one system, one format, no matter their speciality..there are exceptions..a whitehouse press guy I know may only have dslrs, but most commercial guys like myself have to shoot into different end uses, web to billboard, but mostly print use, and different subjects..mostly people with an occassional landscape or still life detail..instead of 3 camera systems we are getting down to 2 and now with a small camera with bigish files..maybe one will cover it for some shooters. I think it is a safe bet that the new Leica S2 will produce beautiful big files..giving extra quality /resolution to those who prefer to work with a small handheld package. I have to disagree with Guy, I don't feel there has been any marketing bs about the camera, they have presented it in an understated way, just stating its proposed specs. Others may have taken the ball and run with it..but Leica, if anything has been sedate in their marketing of this innovative camera.. as they should be given the lead time to production. To me this camera clearly sits as they say, in the middle between the large 60mp and the FFdslrs..and for some it will fill all their commercial needs, for others maybe a good chunk of their needs, while still others will see too few needs to justify the cost. I think just because a company launches a camera it shouldn't be assumed they think it is the end all camera. I would also hope the company firmly believes what they are bringing to market is worthwhile and are equally passionate about its abilities. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guy_mancuso Posted June 11, 2009 Share #107 Posted June 11, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) Not so much Leica per say Paul but others and i won't name names. Not going to throw anyone under the bus , so I will leave it alone. Also I am not defending Mamiya in any way shape or form. I am defending the MF market on what it is and is not and that includes all the brands. I don't care if anyone buys a Mamiya but they have been getting a very bad rap for a long time because of there name. I just don't think it is very fair when I see everyday how well they produce. I could put up images here that the detail would blow folks off the charts but I see no reason for that kind of posting. Best for me just to leave for awhile since I am bugged by certain people and there hype. I don't sell this stuff and i don't guess at what it can all do, I'm a user that deals with it everyday and you will never get half truths and hype out of me. It is what it is and i am as blunt and honest about it as i can be , that is my style no BS, some folks depend on what I say and i will not misguide them in any way. Issue is some don't want to hear honest opinions from real users. Have fun all Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptomsu Posted June 11, 2009 Share #108 Posted June 11, 2009 @Paul I agree with all your comments, but it does not change anything on what the S2 will be or will not be. It will be as you say a camera between FF DSLRs (which are replacing as you say MF film and I agree with that, as I can see it in direct comparison from my high end scanned MF films) and between digital MF - Hasselblad and Mamiya/Phase (think most of the others are kind of dead) which will be the new high end / high resolution solutions replacing large format film. So nothing against this definition and I think it is somehow correct, although a bit theoretical So the S2 might be - as you say - a camera which could merge all needs of certain people into one system. I guess this is also what Leica intends, otherwise I could not see any reason for having developed this new system. There are several issues with that - one that I then do not understand WHY they still want to bring a R10 system and canibalise their own S2 market with that and second the uncertainity how they will perform in the end with the S System. Not talking about the concept and about the quality coming out of the system, but really concerned about their ability to deliver the system in time, in the right numbers, for a reasonable price and give the according support as well as show a clear strategy into the future. They were always weak in this direction and so far nothing has changed for the S System. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Overgaard Posted June 11, 2009 Share #109 Posted June 11, 2009 Peter, I think what changed sine Photokina with the S2 and the R10 was that the R10 is going to change. It's going to be more a mini-S than a new fullframe system. I guess someone made a decision to scrap the R line and rethink it all again. Smaller sensor, smaller and more economical lenses, faster operation. And hopefully an even smaller S that will serve as an intro into Leica dSLR (like Canon 5DII). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulmoore Posted June 11, 2009 Share #110 Posted June 11, 2009 Peter, I think what changed sine Photokina with the S2 and the R10 was that the R10 is going to change. It's going to be more a mini-S than a new fullframe system. I guess someone made a decision to scrap the R line and rethink it all again. Smaller sensor, smaller and more economical lenses, faster operation. And hopefully an even smaller S that will serve as an intro into Leica dSLR (like Canon 5DII). I agree, a mini S2, much more appealing to the non professional market and the segment of the professional market which does not need that extra size.. @Peter, this is why I say the S2 could be all a shooter needs.. though I would think a baby S2 as backup would open up a lot more shooting possibilities. I will guestimate that 95% of what gets shot professionally could be done with a S2 whereas the S2baby would be done around 85%.. but if 80% of your bread and butter comes from those other areas then this aint for you and you'd be better off with a p65+ or a cf39ms. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptomsu Posted June 11, 2009 Share #111 Posted June 11, 2009 I will guestimate that 95% of what gets shot professionally could be done with a S2 whereas the S2baby would be done around 85%.. but if 80% of your bread and butter comes from those other areas then this aint for you and you'd be better off with a p65+ or a cf39ms. This is what I am still in the process of finding out Which is BTW a very nice and interesting phase to be in Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
markowich Posted June 11, 2009 Share #112 Posted June 11, 2009 how does 'love factor' translate into image quality? peter If love factor is part of your consideration, then all discussion is redundant, Thorsten. Because love is blind. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdai Posted June 11, 2009 Share #113 Posted June 11, 2009 how does 'love factor' translate into image quality?peter Well, Peter ... it's all about the good stuff in your karma, you don't want to act/feel like a mathematician or physicist in front of your girlfriend, do you? Who let "Leica" happens to be another L word? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wildlightphoto Posted June 12, 2009 Share #114 Posted June 12, 2009 how does 'love factor' translate into image quality? I don't use a camera that I don't like, and I make lousy pictures when I'm fighting the equipment. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wildlightphoto Posted June 12, 2009 Share #115 Posted June 12, 2009 Those who put ergonomics and weather sealing above image quality probably will never take a look at the S2. and those who want both weather sealing and image quality will jump all over it, with the ergonomics as a bonus. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanG Posted June 12, 2009 Share #116 Posted June 12, 2009 how does 'love factor' translate into image quality?peter I handled the S2 and it felt fine to me. I couldn't see loving it or loving any other camera. However the only advantage I see of the S2 over a DSLR is likely to be resolution. In every other way the 35mm DSLRs have more features, more lenses, and faster performance. Plus the 35mm based systems are lighter, smaller and easier to drag around. (Especially the smaller bodied FF DSLRs.) So I can't see why an S2 would be more pleasurable for me to work with. Now if the results are that much better, it may be worth the extra work. But it won't be easier to shoot with an S2, I know that for sure. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
markowich Posted June 12, 2009 Share #117 Posted June 12, 2009 Well, Peter ... it's all about the good stuff in your karma, you don't want to act/feel like a mathematician or physicist in front of your girlfriend, do you? Who let "Leica" happens to be another L word? hmmmm, to act like a mathematician is supercool, isn't it?---)))) wouldn't like to act like a physicist though---))). p Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
markowich Posted June 12, 2009 Share #118 Posted June 12, 2009 I handled the S2 and it felt fine to me. I couldn't see loving it or loving any other camera. However the only advantage I see of the S2 over a DSLR is likely to be resolution. In every other way the 35mm DSLRs have more features, more lenses, and faster performance. Plus the 35mm based systems are lighter, smaller and easier to drag around. (Especially the smaller bodied FF DSLRs.) So I can't see why an S2 would be more pleasurable for me to work with. Now if the results are that much better, it may be worth the extra work. But it won't be easier to shoot with an S2, I know that for sure. right to the point. you trade superior autofocus, fps....for better resolution and (most likely) better lenses. you also loose a lot of system flexibility (lens choice, nikon flash system) and gain a lot of (lens) weight. the resolution deficit will be corrected by canikon in the next generation which most likely will be out not too long after the S2 will be available---))). peter Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wildlightphoto Posted June 13, 2009 Share #119 Posted June 13, 2009 ... the resolution deficit will be corrected by canikon in the next generation which most likely will be out not too long after the S2 will be available---))). Not likely unless Canikon is also planning a larger sensor and a new series of lenses to match. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pascal_meheut Posted June 13, 2009 Share #120 Posted June 13, 2009 And once again, resolution seems to be the only criteria of image quality nowadays. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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