Development fiasco... TriX + Xtol

[drums1977]

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Hi ant!

 

I'm happy to read about another happy Xtol user, since I plan to stick to it. This second time I've used fresh fixer (Tetenal), but I doubled the time (8 mins) and gave more vigorous agitation. But, as I said, I haven't scanned yet.

 

By the way, since you have already developed Tri X pushed at 800 developed in Xtol -and maybe even used the same fixer-, could you describe your technique and times for comparison? Thanks!!

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[the.ant]

By the way, since you have already developed Tri X pushed at 800 developed in Xtol -and maybe even used the same fixer-, could you describe your technique and times for comparison? Thanks!!

 

According to Kodak, you should use the same development times for 800 as for 400, with a slight loss in shadow detail. Thus, I usually don't shoot at 800, it's either 400 or 1600 or 3200 for me. I find that in most situations, either 400 is sufficient, or the light is really bad and I need 1600 or 3200, (and if not, I like to be able to stop down a bit). You will have more grain though (and less shadow detail, and increased contrast).

For 400, I usually take xtol 1:1@20° for 9 minutes, for 1600 1:1 for 13:15 minutes or 1:2 for 16:20 minutes. For 3200 it's 1:1 for 15:30 or 1:2 for 19:30.

 

Then again, these times are only estimations, since it always takes a few seconds to fill/empty the tank. I find that trix+xtol is pretty forgiving, but in the end you'll have to find your own preferred time, also depends a bit on what you want to do with the negatives.

I guesstimated my times based on the old tri-x.

 

I don't water the film first, just fill the tank, agitate constantly for one minute, and then for three times (or for 5 seconds) every 30 seconds. Then I wash with stop-bath for one minute and then Tetenal rapidfix (or how it's called, I guess the same you use), constant agitation for one minute, and again for 5 seconds every 30 seconds, total time of 4 minutes. Wash by Ilford method, then soak for one minute in distilled water+washing agent.

 

I think it doesn't help to be vigorous with the agitation, but it's important to be rythmical and consistent. Both, development and fixation happens while the tank is standing still, the agitation is just to get "fresh" chemicals to the film. If you overdo agitation, the chemicals don't have enough time to properly react with the film, plus you run into danger of getting sprocket hole streaks. Happened to me quite a lot in the beginning, when I thought more would be better.

 

I don't have any negatives here, or else I could show you examples of the different stages of purple tint I experiences. Most of the concert and party pictures in my gallery (signature link) are taken at 1600 or 3200 and developed in xtol, but they don't really qualify for a proper comparison, due to differences in scanning and postprocessing.

 

I'll see whether I find some better examples from scans I haven't processed yet.

[john_j]

Good Evening from NY-

 

I have enjoyed the discourse of this quarry.

 

Of late, I use Tri-X and X-tol. I always use Kodak's Rapid fixer A + B for 2x to 2 1/2 x the clearing time. I always check the clearing times while developing. I have tried the Ilford method of fixing and wash with Ilford fixer and Ilford film but it didn't work for me. The Ilford system of print processing with Ilford paper and chemicals has served me more than well for decades and I continue to use it. For film however MY story is different so I use Kodak's procedures which have also served me well for decades.

 

There are many variables in film processing from the water (hard vs soft) to the thermometer to the enlarger (condenser vs diffusion vs cold light) to the lenses (enlarger & camera) etc etc. One needs to "develop" one that works is his/her particular circumstances.

 

The purple cast is the anti-halation backing. I recall Rodinal eating it off (the developer was purple when pouring out) at 1:25 and gave base fog density which was off the charts so I moved to 1:50 and the fog was lower and the developer less purple. HP5+ with Rodinal 1:25 was fine however.

 

When T-Max film were introduced in the 80's, people were very concerned about the magenta cast. Many chemical manufacturers produced developers/fixers/clearing agents to remove the cast. While speaking to a Kodak tech rep, he told me the cast was meant to be there. Moral is as I see it, don't sweat the casts. How are your prints?

 

In this new world of digital, I am making sense of RAW processing as I once did of B & W. I'll always enjoy the darkroom. Threads like this keep it alive.

 

Best,

[EJohnE]

I tried to copy a table of Tri-X, Plus-X and Rodinal here, but it became one long vertical line of

text. So I tried it as a pdf attachment. Probably won't work, though. Gloom and misery, JohnAgfa Rodinal_Push.pdf

 

Just discovered it does seem to appear, but I showed 12 x 16 prints as 12 x 1 prints.

[drums1977]

Well, today I scanned the second roll. I was wrong, the purple tint has gone completely, the scanned images look BW on the screen. I fixed for 8 minutes and washed with 5,10, 20, 40 + 100 inversions.

 

Most images in the roll where slightly underexposed, although usable. They were not very contrasty (would more agitation increase contrast?). I post two examples, one with strong lights and shadows and other a bit flater. Contrast has been very slightly modified in PS.

 

By the way, john_j, you say " I always check the clearing times while developing". What are the clearing times?

 

Thank you so much, I'm learning a lot from you guys!

 

J.

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[andybarton]

Those are better.

 

If you are developing for scanning, you actually want to have slightly flat negatives, so as to retain the detail in the shadows.

 

For this reason, I always shoot my Tri-X at 320 ASA, and under-develop by around 10%, keeping the agitation as normal (i.e. 10 inversions every minute)

[john_j]

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Drums 1977-

 

Clearing time is the time film takes to become clear when placed in fixer. Normally, one should fix a film for twice the time it takes the film to clear. I once read 2 to 3 times so I usually use 2 1/2x.

 

Place a piece of the film you are processing in water for a minute or so. Then put the film into some fixer. Watch how long it takes to clear then double that time.

 

Best,

[rob_x2004]

Tri-X at 320 ASA, and under-develop by around 10%, keeping the agitation as normal (i.e. 10 inversions every minute)

 

Gee thats giving it some! If I tried that at home the negs would be black.

Just goes to show what a difference local conditions can make.

[drums1977]

Drums 1977-

 

Clearing time is the time film takes to become clear when placed in fixer. Normally, one should fix a film for twice the time it takes the film to clear. I once read 2 to 3 times so I usually use 2 1/2x.

 

Place a piece of the film you are processing in water for a minute or so. Then put the film into some fixer. Watch how long it takes to clear then double that time.

 

Best,

 

So, let see if I understand correctly: take a piece of UNDEVELOPPED film (maybe just the piece you cut before loading the film in the spool?), put it in water for 1 minute and then in the fixing broth. Then check the time until it "clears" (excuse my English, but does that mean until it becomes transparent?) and double that time to fix the rest of the roll (maybe a bit more than that for triX).

 

An allow me to make another question (I hope I'm not becoming a bit of a pain...): what's the effect of agitation in the process? More agitation means more contrast? Andybarton, you mention 10 inversions per minute (if that's in 5 seconds it is almost cocktail-shaking speed!), The.ant agitates twice per minute, 3 inversions each time. Standard procedures suggest 5 rather slow inversions per minute. What would be the difference in results considering a same type of film, developer, temperature and water?

 

I read somewhere about a recommended method that consisted on using just enough developper to cover the spool (the rest of the tank would be empty) and, 1 per minute, invert the tank 180º so the developper drips off the film for 5 seconds and then inverting it again back to normal and letting it sit. That would be one LONG inversion per minute.

 

J.

[john_j]

Drums 1977

J-

 

Yes, do the testing with unprocessed film such as what you clipped from the spool while rolling it onto the reels. Use the film you are processing as various films have different clearing times. Slower emulsions tend to have lower times. Use 2x or 2 1/2x the clearing time as your fixing time. 2x is probably fine, I tend to go just a little more to be safe. Note that over fixing film can also do damage and be sure to agitate say 15/20 sec per minute.

 

Yes, by clearing, I mean when the film becomes transparent. BTW, your English is excellent! I assumed it was your first language. Most of us native stateside folks speak little if any of another language. I would one day like to learn enough of another language for travel just to converse a bit with the local people.

 

My fixing times for Tri X in fresh Kodak A + B Rapid Fix can be 1 1/2 to 2 minutes using the clearing method. Also, it's good practice to tap the tank on your sink after each agitation period (for the fixer and developer) this will dislodge air bubbles which might process as spots on you film.

 

Good Weekend to All,

[the.ant]

Standard procedures suggest 5 rather slow inversions per minute

 

No, standard procedure suggest 2-5 agitations per 30 seconds. http://www.kodak.com/global/en/professional/support/techPubs/j109/j109.pdf

 

I read somewhere about a recommended method that consisted on using just enough developper to cover the spool (the rest of the tank would be empty) and, 1 per minute, invert the tank 180º so the developper drips off the film for 5 seconds and then inverting it again back to normal and letting it sit. That would be one LONG inversion per minute.

 

Doesn't make any sense to me. Again, the point of the agitation is to mix up the chemicals. This "dripping off" would be way too unpredictable to produce consistent results. Plus, you would have unequal exposure of the film to the developer.

 

If you want to experiment, you might try stand developing, but I've never done that with Xtol.

[the.ant]

Yes, do the testing with unprocessed film such as what you clipped from the spool while rolling it onto the reels.

 

 

Thanks for the info John, I've never heard of that method, but I'll give it a try.

[drums1977]

Hi everyone!

 

First of all, thanks to eveyone for your kind help. Today I applied your advice again with -apparently- good results. I shot a TriX 400 roll at EI 400 (for a change). The.ant, I followed your development times and agitations to the letter, cheers! For the fixing time, I used the film clearing time x2.5 that John_j suggested. It turned out to be roughly 8 minutes, the same time I used in the previous roll.

 

I just hung the film and it looks quite better that the las one, shot at EI 800. The negatives are thicker, with apparently nicer contrast; and not a trace of purple tone (I used my modified ilford wash agitation, 5+10+20+40+100). Can't wait to scan them, I'll let you know!

 

J.

 

John_j, thank you for the remark, but no, English is not my first language. I'm Spanish but I studied your language at university (and my girl is british! )...

[drums1977]

Thanks to all of you. The last roll came out pretty well, what I relief. Nice contrast and tones. I suppose that "don't push the film if you can avoid it" is a good general rule!

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[the.ant]

Hi Drums,

 

looks good indeed, looking forward to see more of your pictures.

[Michael Hiles]

I suppose that "don't push the film if you can avoid it" is a good general rule!

 

Absolutely. You certainly have a good negative there.

[john_j]

Nice tones Drums! Yes only use pushing when you absolutely cannot get the picture any other way. Remember in a stage type situation (play or concert) there is a lot of light on the performers but your light meter may be fooled due to all the dark surrounding areas. Try a little creative bracketing and meter for the most important part of the scene. Same holds try on the street at night.

 

Best,

[dfoo]

I use XTol for all my development. For TriX if the negative was exposed in very contrasty light then 5s every 60s, otherwise 5s every 30s. More agitation == more contrast.

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[batmobile]

drums,

 

You will always lose shadow detail pushing. If you want to increase contrast generally, try longer times with slightly less agitation. this will help avoid blowing highlights and nurse up the shadows (which you are likely to want in any pushed film unless you specifically want thin shadows). merely invreasing agitation will hike the highlights alone and not contribute to the shadow solution.

[tgray]

I use Tri-X in XTOL 1:1 all the time. No problems there. The data sheets do give the same time for 400 and 800, relying on the film's latitude for the underexposure of 800 to give you an image. I've personally never tried it. If you're going to push, just go to 1600

 

Anyway, as everyone else has said, sounds like underfixing. If your film comes out looking milky purple, its not been fixed long enough. Agitate a lot during fixing and washing.

 

Pour some of your fixer into a cup and drop a piece of film in it and swish it around periodically. Time it to see how long it takes to clear. Double that time and that's how long you fix your film for. Make sure you read your directions on your fixer and make it up right, and throw it out when its nearing exhaustion (dispose of it properly though because it has silver in it which is bad for the environment). I've never used the fix you are using; I use Ilford Rapid Fixer. I mix it up 1:4, about 1.5 L of it, which is good for 36 rolls. Every roll of T-grain film I put through it counts as 2 rolls - they also get fixed for longer.

 

Tri-X does have a slight purplish tint to the base, but its clear and even, not milky. Don't kill yourself trying to get that out.