M8 vs DMR, very different colors in Capture One

[wattsy]

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not trying to be contrarian at all but on my calibrated macbook pro all elements look correct including the blurry greyscale which to me is the best indicator of proper color balace. maybe it is a colorspace issue. are you guys on macs?

 

 

I tend to agree. On my Mac (calibrated monitor) the second chart (original charts earlier in the thread) is very slightly warmer but nothing to get alarmed about.

 

For what it's worth (I have only shot a tiny handful of snaps with my M8 up until know), the auto white balance doesn't seem to cope hugely well under indoor lighting (mixture of tungsten and flourescent). To be fair, I always end up tweaking the colour balance of RAWs shot under these conditions but M8 DNGs look like they may need a little more tweaking.

[bradreiman]

pascal-do you mean by "TC" color temperature? im guessing temperature du colour or something of the like? thanks for the great comparisons by the way....b

[pascal_meheut]

Once again, I tried with every WB setting, did the WB manually in C1 and I'm watching the images on an Eizo L997 (same LCD as the CG210) calibrated with a GretagMacbeth EyeOne spectrophotometer and ProfileMaker 5.

 

And I also tried with different colorspaces and so on. The problem always appear.

 

Yes, I'm using TC for color temperature. Sorry for the french abbreviation.

[bradreiman]

this is one thing im excited about the m8 is steppable kelvin settings of such a wide scale. being a video engineer all white balance is read and set under kelvin temperature values so its something im used to and understand better....b

[Guest malland]

this is one thing im excited about the m8 is steppable kelvin settings of such a wide scale. being a video engineer all white balance is read and set under kelvin temperature values so its something im used to and understand better....b

 

Isn't this true about of every digital camera of any significant capability?

 

—Mitch/Bangkok

[pascal_meheut]

First, I reported the issue to Leica and as usual, they have been very fast to respond and considering it. Thanks to them.

 

Finally, it seems to me that this is indeed a problem with the C1 generic profile and that we would need more of them to handle the different light temperatures.

I created a custom profile for my 2400K image using ProfileMaker and the results are much better. The profile also improves a lot the real images I shot under this light.

 

Here are the example in this order:

1) 6100K with C1 generic profile

2) 2400K with my custom profile, quite close to 1)

3) 2400 with C1 generic profile, major magenta cast

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[clayh]

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Any chance you will share this custom profile with the rest of us magenta prone M8 owners? It would be very much appreciated!

[pascal_meheut]

Try to copy and paste this address in your browser:

 

"http://www.photofaq.eu/temp/Leica M8 Incandescent (reproduction D50 sat-10 ctr-5).icc"

 

I know the name is awesome but I wanted to record the ProfileMaker parameters I've used in it.

[mhoutman]

Pascal,

 

Just curious: you used the C1 3.7.6 LE version but did you also used the PRO version ?

 

Cheers,

 

Michiel

[fotografr]

Try to copy and paste this address in your browser:

 

"http://www.photofaq.eu/temp/Leica M8 Incandescent (reproduction D50 sat-10 ctr-5).icc"

 

I know the name is awesome but I wanted to record the ProfileMaker parameters I've used in it.

 

I tried the link and it doesn't work for me.

[robsteve]

Brent:

 

Try this one. windows maps the spaces and stuff in the URL to this and it may stay as a complete link when posted here.

 

http://www.photofaq.eu/temp/Leica%20M8%20Incandescent%20(reproduction%20D50%20sat-10%20ctr-5).icc

[adan]

Two points:

 

1) I agree that the grays in Pascal's samples are nice and neutral, measured from these jpegs in PS.

 

2) But color calibration is not the same thing as white balance or a color cast. In Photoshop, if you slide the Hue slider around, you can make the COLORS go screwy (even turn red into cyan) without affecting neutral grays at all.

 

What I am seeing in Pascal's images, measuring the RGB in the R/G/B patches (row 4, E through G) is that the blue is actually just about right (around 57R, 50G, 120B in ProPhoto color space) but that the green is way blue-cyan, and that the red is way magenta.

 

In fact, they are so far off that it's almost impossible to correct them. BUT - that's playing with Hue/Saturation in PS with a jpeg off the web. Calibrating up front with a DNG file would likely be much easier.

 

In Adobe Camera Raw, the calibration panel has separate Hue and Saturation sliders for R, G, and B. By shooting a Colorchecker, getting the grays neutral with white balance, and then playing with those calibration sliders, one can "set" the colors of the R/G/B patches to match standard values for those patches (numbers available on the Web) - adjusting the greens to be more yellow or cyan, the reds to be more magenta or yellow, and the blues to be more cyan or magenta.

 

At which point you have a "calibration" for the camera - the relative colors and brightnesses of the primaries are in the correct relationships, and the other "in-between" colors follow along. This calibration setting can be saved, and applied with one mouse click to all pictures in the future.

 

I assume Capture One and other raw developers have similar calibration tools.

 

Bruce Fraser has a nice step-by-step article on the Web on calibrating cameras in RAW:

 

creativepro.com - Out of Gamut: Calibrating Camera Raw in Photoshop CS

[fotografr]

Brent:

 

Try this one. windows maps the spaces and stuff in the URL to this and it may stay as a complete link when posted here.

 

http://www.photofaq.eu/temp/Leica%20M8%20Incandescent%20(reproduction%20D50%20sat-10%20ctr-5).icc

 

Thanks, Rob. That worked.

[Jamie Roberts]

{Snipped} greys look pretty neutral in both but m8 very slight elevated green low end. the last charts make me think this whole thing is a color temperature thing. {snipped}.

 

This is exactly what I was seeing in skin tones too... FWIW. I don't see a cast on the charts (DNG) either. The M8 looks more saturated, but that's the input profile.

 

What output profile are you guys going to? You could conceivably be clipping, given the gamut MR measured at LL....

[Jamie Roberts]

{snipped}I assume Capture One and other raw developers have similar calibration tools.

 

Bruce Fraser has a nice step-by-step article on the Web on calibrating cameras in RAW:

 

creativepro.com - Out of Gamut: Calibrating Camera Raw in Photoshop CS

 

Andy--agreed. I think what we're seeing is just an early profile by C1, and it's mis-calibrated. There's no cast that I can see.

 

But, to my eyes and taste, the M8 profile is still too saturated, and yes, the reds are way too magenta (and there's too much green elsewhere).

 

C1 lets you do two things to fix this; you can edit the profile in the color editor (not for the faint of heart) or you can use a different input profile.

 

But I'm going to mess with output profiles and see what I can do. I have a hunch there's some clipping going on...

[pascal_meheut]

I started with AdobeRGB but now, I output directly into the M8 profile space. Same results.

 

BTW, if someone download my custom profile, be careful. It is not as good as it could be and seems to work well only around 2400K. If I have time, I'll try to build a few better ones and let you know.

 

And if you want to see another problem, here it is. We already saw it on some previously posted DNG but if someone can tell me the best way to remove this banding or if this is something we can expect a futur firmware to solve, I'll be grateful.

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[sean_reid]

Andy--agreed. I think what we're seeing is just an early profile by C1, and it's mis-calibrated. There's no cast that I can see.

 

But, to my eyes and taste, the M8 profile is still too saturated, and yes, the reds are way too magenta (and there's too much green elsewhere).

 

C1 lets you do two things to fix this; you can edit the profile in the color editor (not for the faint of heart) or you can use a different input profile.

 

But I'm going to mess with output profiles and see what I can do. I have a hunch there's some clipping going on...

 

I do find that the stock profile's saturation is a bit much and mentioned that in the review.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

[Jamie Roberts]

I started with AdobeRGB but now, I output directly into the M8 profile space. Same results.

 

BTW, if someone download my custom profile, be careful. It is not as good as it could be and seems to work well only around 2400K. If I have time, I'll try to build a few better ones and let you know.

 

And if you want to see another problem, here it is. We already saw it on some previously posted DNG but if someone can tell me the best way to remove this banding or if this is something we can expect a futur firmware to solve, I'll be grateful.

 

Hey Pascal, let me dig out the anti-banding recipe I got from a computer science friend and I'll send it to you to play with; you can mask the banding in PS pretty well.

 

But what was the exposure / ISO on this shot like? I mean, it looks a bit under to me...

[sean_reid]

I started with AdobeRGB but now, I output directly into the M8 profile space. Same results.

 

BTW, if someone download my custom profile, be careful. It is not as good as it could be and seems to work well only around 2400K. If I have time, I'll try to build a few better ones and let you know.

 

And if you want to see another problem, here it is. We already saw it on some previously posted DNG but if someone can tell me the best way to remove this banding or if this is something we can expect a futur firmware to solve, I'll be grateful.

 

What's the data on the picture with banding? ISO, shutter speed, etc. Is that at 2500?

 

Cheers,

 

S

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Hallo,

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[pascal_meheut]

ISO 1250, 28mm/2 wide-open, 1/8 sec. I also have it on the same picture shot at ISO 640 & 1/4 sec. In fact, I shot this picture 6 times and each exhibit banding.