barjohn Posted April 30, 2009 Share #1 Posted April 30, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) Check out the new 40MP camera from Phase One announces P40+ medium format system: Digital Photography Review It is priced at €14,990 for the digital back and €16,990 for the camera system and shoots at 1.2fps in regular 40MP mode and at 1.8fps in 40+ mode. 40+ mode supports up to ISO 3200. With a changeable back and what appears to be reasonable size this is smack in S2 territory. Oh! And most importantly it is available now not in some far off distant maybe date. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted April 30, 2009 Posted April 30, 2009 Hi barjohn, Take a look here New S2 competitor from Phase One. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
dfarkas Posted April 30, 2009 Share #2 Posted April 30, 2009 John, We've been discussing the P40+ over in the "S2 under pricing pressure" thread. See my reply there regarding the comparison: http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/leica-s2-forum/83991-s2-under-pricing-pressure-8.html#post886676 David Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
adan Posted April 30, 2009 Share #3 Posted April 30, 2009 "...it is available now not in some far off distant maybe date." If you mean September, just say so. If you're uninformed about the S2 release date, just admit it. If you just want an excuse to use smarmy exaggeration, you're going down the Rush Limbaugh/Karl Rove route - and Rush and Karl are losers, these days. Yes, the P40+ is a fair match for the S2 - paper specs to paper specs. It also costs, with no lens, just about what Dr. Kauffman said he hoped for as the S2 body price - Eu14,999 (~$20,000). Eu2,000 (~$2,700) more with lens. So you pays your money and you takes your choice: Boxy traditional MF ergonomics, Mamiya lenses, removable back - vs. "35mm" DSLR ergonomics, Leica lenses, sealed-but-less-easily-upgradeable one-piece body. It's nice to have choices. I'm not sure it's anything to dribble at the mouth over. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdh Posted April 30, 2009 Share #4 Posted April 30, 2009 Is the September date a certainty? It would be nice to know that as well as pricing. Regards - Seth Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptomsu Posted April 30, 2009 Share #5 Posted April 30, 2009 "...it is available now not in some far off distant maybe date." If you mean September, just say so. If you're uninformed about the S2 release date, just admit it. If you just want an excuse to use smarmy exaggeration, you're going down the Rush Limbaugh/Karl Rove route - and Rush and Karl are losers, these days. Yes, the P40+ is a fair match for the S2 - paper specs to paper specs. It also costs, with no lens, just about what Dr. Kauffman said he hoped for as the S2 body price - Eu14,999 (~$20,000). Eu2,000 (~$2,700) more with lens. So you pays your money and you takes your choice: Boxy traditional MF ergonomics, Mamiya lenses, removable back - vs. "35mm" DSLR ergonomics, Leica lenses, sealed-but-less-easily-upgradeable one-piece body. It's nice to have choices. I'm not sure it's anything to dribble at the mouth over. A. Piper!!! Hey, what do I recon here? Boxy MF bodies? I love the form factor of the Mamiya! Mamiya lenses? Come on, do you really think they are bad? and Leica can do so much better? Price too high? Wait till you see the S2 price (without lens) Availability? The P40+ is available now, with the complete Mamiya MF system, you will have to wait years till Leica shows the same availability. SW - this is just my point I want to make in addition: C1 is available already with a new release, supporting also the P40+ What do you think will happen for the S2 or S3 etc etc? Sw releases will never be as quick following the S camera models. But wait - Maybe this is totally wrong, because Leica will only bring a new S model every 5 years, so Phase will easily be able to follow up with SW releases :D:D Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
adan Posted May 1, 2009 Share #6 Posted May 1, 2009 "I love the form factor of the Mamiya!" - Buy one, by all means! As I said, choices as good. Just don't make the mistake of assuming that because YOU like something, it is what everyone else likes. "Mamiya lenses? Come on, do you really think they are bad?" - The C330 lenses are pretty good for the money - $150-$500. Generally I haven't been all that impressed with ANY MF lenses, except the original Hassy SWC Biogon 38mm. I tried Mamiya 6 and 7 cameras last year, because MF digital is so expensive. After a month alongside the M8, I dumped the Mamiyas - no point to them. "Price too high? Wait till you see the S2 price (without lens)" - The best EVIDENCE available is Dr. Kaufmann's statement that he hoped for a Eu15,000 price for the S2 body (same as the p40+). If you have other evidence, from a named source, regarding a different S2 price, feel free to present it. Just remember that opinions are never evidence. "You will have to wait years till Leica shows the same availability." - Got evidence? What is "years"? 13 months? 2 years? 5 years? "C1 is available already with a new release...What do you think will happen for the S2 or S3." As I recall, PhaseOne and Leica are partners, are they not? Leica digital cameras come with C1. PhaseOne writes the profiles for the M8. The PhaseOne P40+ is a competitor that can reasonably be compared to the Leica S2, just as a Mamiya RB or RZ can be compared to a Pentax 6x7. Similar imaging size, similar pixel resolution, different lenses, different form factors. Presumably once they are both available, someone with the big bucks or connections to get hold of both can do a head-to-head comparison (Michael Reichmann, maybe). It would be a very interesting horse race. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
barjohn Posted May 1, 2009 Author Share #7 Posted May 1, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) Andy, You are sure one to talk. You have no more idea than anyone else when the S2 will be available nor its price. Hoped for price is not a commitment to a price. You think late summer means September but that is past summer and no one knows that Leica will have anything out then. Their software ability has been abysmal and slow. I see no reason to expect that to change. Were I a gambler and a betting man I would aim for 2010 but I am not. They may rush out a body and one or two lenses but if they do they will be problem prone. When a company doesn't let anyone keep files taken with the prototype there is a reason. It isn't because the files would knock your socks off. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptomsu Posted May 1, 2009 Share #8 Posted May 1, 2009 My opinion WRT S2 does not change! Believe me, I would love to see this system become a big success and be competitively priced, as the specs are just fantastic for me. Exactly what I need, I mean they would really meet 96% of my needs and expectations of a MF system. Unfortunately we all know the history of Leica in digital and they first have to prove they can do MUCH better than they did - especially with SW, updates and support. It does not mean anything even if the can ship the S2 with 3 lenses in autumn and have a competitive price, if they go through all the hassle they went through with the M8 afterwards (and I do not want to think about the DMR at all)! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
adan Posted May 1, 2009 Share #9 Posted May 1, 2009 It's true that I place little value on any opinions, including my own. Opinions are like flatulence - a burst of warm. moist air, often noxious, that any human orifice is capable of producing. Instead I look at the evidence and facts available. As to the S2 price, there is one (weak) piece of evidence for Eu15,000 - and none at all for any other price. Evidence, even weak, trumps any preconceived opinion. As to "Summer" - from Summer Solstice (June 20/21) to Fall Equinox (Sept 20/21). I'm not sure what there is to debate there except for hemispheric differences, and Solms isn't south of the Equator. As to Leica's delivery date: Again - the only evidence is Leica's statements. If you've got facts, you can disprove them. If you don't - you've got nothing. As to Leica's historical performance: I hear both you and Peter, but then again, that was 3 CEOs ago (for the M8) and 4 CEOs ago (or was it 5? Let's see: Spiller, Kaufmann, Lee, Spichtig, Cohn) for the DMR. Leica missed the DMR deadline by 18 months, and met the M8 deadline with problems after the fact. Maybe that means they've screwed up every time - or maybe it means they've undershot and overshot, and the next one will be right down the middle. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guy_mancuso Posted May 1, 2009 Share #10 Posted May 1, 2009 Is that the same as two wrongs don't make it right. LOL Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptomsu Posted May 1, 2009 Share #11 Posted May 1, 2009 I only can repeat that I wish Leica all the best for the introduction of the S System. The digital MF market has a new and real competitor very necessary. And we all know that. So all the best and I hope for a stellar product, great support and interesting and real future plans. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
adan Posted May 1, 2009 Share #12 Posted May 1, 2009 Is that the same as two wrongs don't make it right. LOL Maybe. Or maybe it means Leica can learn from their mistakes and change their culture. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
c6gowin Posted May 1, 2009 Share #13 Posted May 1, 2009 When a company doesn't let anyone keep files taken with the prototype there is a reason. It isn't because the files would knock your socks off. You are correct, there is a reason. The camera manufactures don't want images to get out on the internet that do not accurately reflect what the production camera will ultimately produce when the software/firmware/hardware is finalized. I attended PhotoPlus in NYC last fall to see the S2 and sure enough Leica didn't want anyone inserting their cards into the camera. I was not surprised and understood their reasoning. I was disappointed because I really wanted to see what the camera could do, but in retrospect I realized that what I really wanted was to see what the S2 that I could buy would do - the prototype S2 was not for sale. While at the same PhotoPlus show I made it a point to look at the announced but not released for sale Canon 5D Mark II. At the time the 5D Mark II was less than a month from being available to the public and the samples they had at the show were essentially production models (far from the prototype stage). Still, Canon did not allow show goers to insert their cards into the 5D Mark II. That doesn't mean someone didn't sneak and do it, but as a matter of policy Canon didn't allow it. Perhaps someone with more experience attending photo equipment trade shows could chime in and offer their experience with manufacturers policies toward allowing show goers keeping files from pre-release cameras. I would be surprised if any manufacturer allows it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
barjohn Posted May 2, 2009 Author Share #14 Posted May 2, 2009 I don't know whether they allow it or not or intentionally turn their back for a moment when it is to their advantage. Having images that would wow the viewer sneak out on the Internet is a good way to create buzz about a product; however, if it would be seen as less than spectacular then it would have the opposite effect. My guess is that IQ is not there yet. Otherwise a few carefully leaked images (not like the sample shoot previously released by the company) might go a long way toward creating the buzz they need to keep someone from buying a competitor's product and encourage the buyer to wait. Marketing is about the ability to create perceived value in the mind of the buyer and to encourage the buyer to purchase the product. So far the two sales propositions are the promise of better lenses and the smaller form factor. Speed, high ISO performance and IQ are speculated but not known or comparable today. The smaller form factor suffers a major disadvantage in its a) very high cost to upgrade or it is not upgradeable at all making it a soon to be expensive but obsolete camera. Real innovation would have kept a small or even smaller form factor with a thin removable back (slide in versus snap on) thus allowing for the investment in body and lenses to be seen as long term. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanG Posted May 2, 2009 Share #15 Posted May 2, 2009 I attended PhotoPlus in NYC last fall to see the S2 and sure enough Leica didn't want anyone inserting their cards into the camera. I was not surprised and understood their reasoning. I was disappointed because I really wanted to see what the camera could do, but in retrospect I realized that what I really wanted was to see what the S2 that I could buy would do - the prototype S2 was not for sale. You can't get much of a photo in the Javits Center unless you shoot one of the models in another booth. SO maybe they don't want sucky shots posted. I think it was at the Photo Expo that people first saw the IR issue. I guess that since theis was a production camera they let this person shoot to his card. There's a lot of magenta in the images. Hands On Experience of the Leica M8 at NYC Photo Expo... Image Intensive!! - ClubSNAP Photography Forums Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptomsu Posted May 2, 2009 Share #16 Posted May 2, 2009 Real innovation would have kept a small or even smaller form factor with a thin removable back (slide in versus snap on) thus allowing for the investment in body and lenses to be seen as long term. Not sure if this would be (would have been) possible. If you split the camera in body and back, then per definition it gets bigger. And to be honest - the real money is parked in the sensor and according electronics. Take the new P40+ back, which is €14.990. back alone and €16.990.- back plus camera plus lens. So the camera plus lens price is maybe 10-20% of the back price. I actually do not give a s... on buying a new camera if prices are in that range, it is just below noise for me, if I spend so much money overall. So actually the longer I look into the S System details, the more appealing it gets for me. 1) We see 2 trends in MFDB - FF 645 and 1.3 crop and while FF (the only available today is the P65+) brings a lot of advantages, the drawback is that the lenses are stressed to the limits by the image size (not so much resolution). So actually having a 1.3 crop is something good and allows for much more compact lens design and higher quality at th same time. 2) On the other hand 40MP are really more than enough to make even stunning 60"x40" prints, which is somehow the largest I need to go. And this stunning measn that you do not need too much upres in post processing and get great quality. Of course you can go even larger, and still have good quality. I would even say that 95% of people will not see the differences 3) If I can get a system which produces enough IQ for stunning large format fine art prints plus has a smaller and more convenient form factor tan normal MF plus is easier to carry and use plus allows better optics for a more reasonable price it must be a win situation. 4) Phase talked already last year about some next steps after the P65+, which - believe it or not - meant more MP than the 60MP of the P65+. Who would really need that in MFDBs? Not sure! But I understand that his needs to be the next incarnation in sensor technology, which is 5 micrometer, and it would then allow to produce a S2 size sensor with maybe 50-60MP. Folks, this is really more than enough for 99% of what even the most demanding photographers would need, especially if combined with Leica glass. End of the day - the S System is promising and is a good direction - question remaining is, if Leica can hold up to these possibilities this time and make it a success or many years to come. I wish they can do so! At least I am trying to hold my MF inestment till the S System hits the market and decide then. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
luigi bertolotti Posted May 2, 2009 Share #17 Posted May 2, 2009 Sorry... a trivial question about the impossibility to insert a memory card in S2 at NYC's Photo Plus : couldn't it be simply for the reason that with a S2 RAW file into your card, you haven't any Software to process it ? I think none could be really interested in jpgs processed into a preproduction model: for such a camera, the real interest is towards its native raw files. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dfarkas Posted May 2, 2009 Share #18 Posted May 2, 2009 Sorry... a trivial question about the impossibility to insert a memory card in S2 at NYC's Photo Plus : couldn't it be simply for the reason that with a S2 RAW file into your card, you haven't any Software to process it ? I think none could be really interested in jpgs processed into a preproduction model: for such a camera, the real interest is towards its native raw files. The S2, even the prototypes shoot standard DNG. You can use CS4, Lightroom, Aperture, etc. to open them. Since there is no LCC/DAC corrections, you do not need proprietary s/w to convert. Standards are good. In the S2 demo room at Photokina CF card images were offloaded and shown in Lightroom. Of course, lousy trade show lighting, no strobes, and ISO 100 don't make for the best samples. For the LFI shoot, they used Aperture for the S2 files. David Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/83595-new-s2-competitor-from-phase-one/?do=findComment&comment=887253'>More sharing options...
ptomsu Posted May 2, 2009 Share #19 Posted May 2, 2009 David, I am slowly getting there You say there are NO corrections necessary anymore for the Leica shots? Not as with Phase or Hasselblad? Do they not do these calculations in camera? Thanks for your feedback Peter Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
carstenw Posted May 2, 2009 Share #20 Posted May 2, 2009 When a company doesn't let anyone keep files taken with the prototype there is a reason. It isn't because the files would knock your socks off. Well, I went through some S2 files with a Leica technician who visited Berlin, and the photos knocked my socks off. Seriously, they were amazingly sharp, right into the corners, the colours were excellent, and the boke was the usual beautiful Leica boke. Prepare to be surprised. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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