Nick Devlin review of 5DII has relevance to S2

[marcusperkins]

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Thanks Jamie - well put. I agree for the most part with what you are saying.

 

I would however be interested to see if the 'line' can be reproduced on your camera (or anyone else's for that matter). I first noticed it when I was forced to shoot high ISO (1250) with flash.

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[AlanG]

Jamie,

 

The bottom line is that in the greater scheme of Leica, Canon, and Nikon, it doesn't matter what you or I say here. It won't change opinions. I don't think you can deny that Canon and Nikon digital gear has a good reputation among pros and Leica gear currently does not.

 

Now you and the people at the Leica company may feel that Leica deserves a better reputation, but what are they doing to address this? In my opinion Leica presents an arrogant attitude by not even acknowledging the problems and taking clear public steps to address them. In two+ years they can't even seem to find a way to keep the M8 from making green stripes from lights at the edge of the frame. Is this unsolvable? This attitude may be acceptable to Leica enthusiasts but not to people who are simply looking for good quality versatile equipment and a professional level of support.

 

The image I've always gotten from Leica is, "We are special, we do thing our way, and we're so great you should appreciate it even if that means you have to pay $50 for a plastic lens cap. We'll fix your camera when we get to it if we have the parts. Otherwise it will sit around until you prod us and remind us that we should get to it. Don't tell us that we should do things differently. What competition? Our products are unique and our lenses are the best." Show me where I'm wrong about this. I don't think this attitude can be in one part of the company and not in the rest. So that would explain why they have a quality control problem.

 

How does a company take three months to fix a camera? Even backyard mechanics can replace the engine in a car in a day or two.

 

For instance, it doesn't take any breakthroughs in sensor design to greatly improve the way the service centers operate. It just takes the will to do so and some organizational skills. I can't see why any Leica gear would leave the factory with some of the things that have been reported to be wrong. It might take more effort to solve this.

 

The cost of so much delivered gear being adjusted or repaired at no charge could be pretty significant as a bottom line number. Even if repairs are free to customers, it is diminishing the company's "goodwill" value.

 

Despite any reverence for preserving the "Leica tradition," whatever one defines that to be...that "tradition" may be part of the problem. It usually is when times change. And when your company is losing money, you too will have to change or you may be gone.

[jaapv]

 

 

 

How does a company take three months to fix a camera? Even backyard mechanics can replace the engine in a car in a day or two.

 

 

 

 

 

Hmmm... Wrong analogy. When I dropped my M8 down a cliff for a 1850 Euro damage, Leica managed to repair it within three weeks. Now I recently crashed my Jaguar for a similar damage, if you consider the relative percentages of cost, and they took over five weeks.....

[AlanG]

Hmmm... Wrong analogy. When I dropped my M8 down a cliff for a 1850 Euro damage, Leica managed to repair it within three weeks. Now I recently crashed my Jaguar for a similar damage, if you consider the relative percentages of cost, and they took over five weeks.....

 

Japp,

 

I had a Jaguar once. My mechanic felt it was very dependable.

 

It is easy to find one example that you think may be at odds to one sentence in several long posts that I spent considerable time thinking about before writing. That does not really convince me. Consider handling, in total, all of the points I tried to make and let's see what you come up with.

 

Was your repair performed in the US? Three weeks is still a long time, but I don't know what was damaged. Instead of your example what about lenses that took weeks or months to get coded or have their focus adjusted? I haven't done a survey, but my understanding is that Canon and Nikon repairs are performed quickly - CPS says they attempt a three day turnaround for pro rush service. My little consumer p&s camera was repaired and returned in less than a week and this was not via CPS. By the way, when things are serviced by Leica, does the company follow up with an independent questionnaire to see what you thought of that service?

 

Separately, your one experience is somewhat irrelevant as there are so many posts on this site that complain about lengthy service times, repairs that were not correct and had to be done again, and equipment that was not right to begin with. When it comes to the S2 system, loaners and rental gear will have to be readily available even if repairs are performed promptly.

 

Regarding the M8... there are several niggling problems that seem to occur periodically on a regular basis, the cause and solution of which, I have never seen anyone explain. E.g. - what actually causes that high ISO line, and how do you know that it has been fixed and will not re-occur? What caused some of the body castings to fail when the camera is used on a tripod? Were some camera castings defective? Has the problem been isolated and models with defective castings have been recalled? Or has nothing been done and this is just a random issue that nobody understands, and they'll deal with on a case by case basis? No need to strengthen that connection either, right? And those green stripes, no progress on that either?

 

Now assume I'm a prospective S2 buyer. Don't you think I would want to see that Leica has solved the issues on the M8 before asking me to invest a lot of money in a totally new system? But the M8.2 came out and didn't resolve any of these things.

 

Are you saying that I have the wrong impression? What is Leica doing to change that?

 

There is much loyalty expressed by Leica customers on this forum and elsewhere. But I believe a lot of this has to do with the history of the Leica rangefinder cameras, the lack of competition in the rangefinder market, and the fact that a lot of the M gear is supported by enthusiasts. So they may be willing, and at times have no choice, to put up with more issues and delays to use their beloved gear. So Leica has a captive audience for a certain amount of sales. S2 buyers will have a choice of other gear.

 

Moving to the S2, Leica has no tradition or similar previous models and will be competing against established brands in a market that is new to Leica. So the only way it can succeed is by making a system that addresses the needs of the potential customers. I hope they are identifying who those customers may be and are taking steps to design a camera and the support that will meet that need.

 

Their new tradition should aim to be state of the art high performance gear delivered at a competitive price with top notch support. This may require what they call an "attitude adjustment."

 

In closing I'll say, as a small business owner, that finding out why potential customers are not hiring me is very valuable information.

[Jamie Roberts]

{snipped}For instance, it doesn't take any breakthroughs in sensor design to greatly improve the way the service centers operate. It just takes the will to do so and some organizational skills. I can't see why any Leica gear would leave the factory with some of the things that have been reported to be wrong. It might take more effort to solve this.

{snipped}

 

Alan--I'm not disagreeing with you here in the slightest. I'll say again that I think service--in the broad sense--is Leica's #1 problem to solve (for pros) and that they have had growing pains, of all things, around the digital M. That's extended to lenses, and it's caused their service centers grief.

 

I still do think that the Summarits are a step in the right direction. I haven't heard any complaints about them at all. The new ultrawides haven't really filled the channel yet, but they are unique, and they look to be well-made (they better be for what they are charging).

 

So we're in agreement, except I see signs that Leica is moving to better places. They probably need to move there faster, and across multiple geographies too. And they need to get to a best-of-breed service organization for the S2 as well: no-one in that market will put up with the previous level of service.

 

PS--I think the only IQ flaw in the M8.2 is the green stripe artifact. It's a big one, and I've been vocal on the subject. They have to fix that in the next generation M8 IMO.

[marcusperkins]

I agree with you fully on this point Jamie - if I felt there was no hope I would have left Leica completely some time back. I do think they will get it right in the near future, simply because they have to. There are no alternatives.

[Jamie Roberts]

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Thanks Jamie - well put. I agree for the most part with what you are saying.

 

I would however be interested to see if the 'line' can be reproduced on your camera (or anyone else's for that matter). I first noticed it when I was forced to shoot high ISO (1250) with flash.

 

Marcus--can you post a shot of what you're seeing? In the M8 forum maybe? Otherwise, send me a PM.

[ptomsu]

I agree with you fully on this point Jamie - if I felt there was no hope I would have left Leica completely some time back. I do think they will get it right in the near future, simply because they have to. There are no alternatives.

 

There is an alternative and it is almost 50% at least - they get it wrong again and close down ......

[AlanG]

I still do think that the Summarits are a step in the right direction. I haven't heard any complaints about them at all. The new ultrawides haven't really filled the channel yet, but they are unique, and they look to be well-made (they better be for what they are charging).

 

 

Sorry to be so picky, but I was reading another thread from a man who recently photographed the "Seal" concert...

 

"I shot in A mode, usually with the lens wide open but did find my new 75 Summarit had a bad case of back focus in 80% of the shots with it."

 

In my imaginary world, the focusing of all Leica lenses would be done to one standard so there should not be differences from one new lens to another. I was once told by Martin at Marflex that every Rolleiflex body went on the same jig at the factory where the plane of focus was adjusted with great precision.

 

I really have no idea about manufacturing and I have no first hand knowledge how Leica actually does anything. But I would venture an opinion that they should bring in some outside experts to go over their entire manufacturing process and see what can be done to improve the efficiency and quality control.

[marcusperkins]

All of my work using Canons is shot manual focus, with the exception of the white super telephotos. My Canons have always been fitted with a course cut manual focussing screen to aid with manual focus - naturally the standard screens are primarily designed for autofocus use (bright, but no focus snap).

 

With these MF screens, and with careful use, I can guarantee extremely accurate focus using fast primes (135/2, 50/1.2, 35/1.4, 24/1.4).

 

The image you see in the viewfinder is diverted via the mirror up the the screen. So it is easy to understand that unless that the screen perfectly positioned, and perfectly flat, the focus in the viewfinder will not match the focus on the sensor or film.

 

My point is - iIn my experience I've never had a canon that was off with regards to manual focussing. (the auto focus issues have now been sorted with the development of user calibration). This has relevance to the Leica issue: If Canon can get their mechanical calibration sorted, why can't Leica with their "tradition" of high tolerance engineering?

 

After two attempts my M8 was perfectly calibrated in Germany for focus with my 50mm - and it was perfect. However, all my other lenses were off in different directions. If all lenses are calibrated on a single jig, or on several perfectly matched jigs, all the lenses should come out of the factory with the same focus accuracy. So, short of endemic incompetence, I don't honestly understand why such expensive optics come out of the factory with such a variation.

 

I'm sure they will figure it out, simply because it must be costing them an absolute fortune endlessly adjusting equipment under warrenty, when it would be far simpler to get it right in the first place.

 

Currently, there is simply too much going wrong with Leica equipment for me to believe that it is as well made as we have been led to believe. As I said earlier, I think they will get it right, simply because if they don't they will go out of business.

 

I'm just about to sell my M8 back to the dealer because of my latest problems. I've just had enough of spending many thousands of pounds on equipment that just does not deliver what is promised.

 

Until Leica rightfully earn back their lost reputation for 'Mechanical Excellence' I won't be buying anymore of their equipment.

[marcusperkins]

Excuse the typos in my previous post - I just can't compete with Alan's perfectly written gems

[Jamie Roberts]

@ Alan--yes, I saw the user report on Seal with the Summarit (which was used, or lightly used, or a sample anyway). It's the only time I've ever read of a Summarit being off, so I suspect in this case, anyway, that it may just be anecdotal.

 

It's also hard, I should say, to focus a 75mm lens on an M8 without a magnifier (or it would be for me).

 

And Leica lenses are all calibrated in a standard fashion; again, I do think the tighter sensor tolerances of the M8 have been giving them grief. Outside consultants couldn't hurt; that's for sure.

 

@ Marcus--I'm truly sorry to hear about all your trouble. My M8 needed exactly one service visit in 2.5 years now of service. That visit wasn't exactly great, but it was only the once.

 

The very least Leica could do for you, given all the trouble you've had, is get you a new M8.2 or M8 and make sure it's spot on!

 

FWIW, and probably not much, I was never able to truly master manual focus with my Canon bodies and L glass--regardless of the screen I put in them--though I did have good success putting R glass via a focus-confirming adapter on the 1ds2.

[adan]

" This has relevance to the Leica issue: If Canon can get their mechanical calibration sorted, why can't Leica with their "tradition" of high tolerance engineering?"

 

Bear in mind that an SLR mirror/view screen system has only one moving part (the mirror) and it only has to be calibrated in one, non-moving, position (mirror down and locked). And even then, the low-end Canons have been reported to have sloppy screen positioning on occasion - AF OK but manual focus not accurate.

 

A rangefinder has a chain of about a dozen moving pieces - from the lens helix through various rollers, levers and bellcranks, to the internal lens that moves the RF image around - that have to be calibrated throughout their moving range, not just at one end, and have to STAY in calibration even when the chain is in constant motion - and is being "disassembled" and "reassembled" by amateurs every time one changes lenses.

 

It's one reason why most camera makers (except Leica) dropped interchangeable-lens mechanical rangefinders 40 years ago, and didn't make ANY mechanical 35mm RFs between the last Minolta/Canonet/Konicas from around 1980, and the first Hexar RF/Bessa Rs around 2000. And even Leica almost killed the M in 1976.

 

They are a PITA to get right, compared to an SLR - as well as having less market potential.

 

The S2 will be a piece of cake - technically - compared to the M series.

 

With the Summarit 75s short, light focus throw, I can imagine it is tricky follow-focusing a singer who moves like Seal. Breath hard, or overshoot the focus ring by .5mm - and focus is off by a foot.

 

Finally - yes, Leica will need pro-quality servicing if they are seriously getting back into the pro market. Loaner cameras by overnight express, and turnarounds under a week. Expensive, and tough to do for a small, low (or no) margin company.

[AlanG]

@ Alan--yes, I saw the user report on Seal with the Summarit (which was used, or lightly used, or a sample anyway). It's the only time I've ever read of a Summarit being off, so I suspect in this case, anyway, that it may just be anecdotal.

 

It's also hard, I should say, to focus a 75mm lens on an M8 without a magnifier (or it would be for me).

 

And Leica lenses are all calibrated in a standard fashion; again, I do think the tighter sensor tolerances of the M8 have been giving them grief. Outside consultants couldn't hurt; that's for sure.

 

Yeah on the 75, it could be user error. But I'd think a sample or used lens would have been more likely to have the focus problem spotted and been sent back for adjustment.

 

I think the point of sensor tolerances is a key and will be more of a factor as resolution increases. Especialy wiht people looking at all of their images at 100%. (There are are some typos for you Marcus )

 

When I was in college, I had courses in statistical analysis of photographic processing as well as the overal photographic system. E.g. if the shutter speed, aperture, meter, film speed, and ISO all have variation, what is the typical result and what is the extreme result?

 

So if every M camera body is adjusted to within one standard deviation and every lens is also adjusted to within one standard deviation, then when a lens and body are matched there could be anywhere from zero to 2 standard deviations for the pair as a group. This makes it so that a given body and a bunch of lenses are almost surely not going to focus exactly the same way. And now users are expecting "EXACT."

 

In the case of the M8, I bet they are at or past any reasonable design parameters for the mechanical focusing linkage technology. It may simply be too expensive to adjust all of the gear to the precision that many users expect. Perhaps Leica would rather deal with the percentage of users who spot the problem and complain, as this is easier than trying to get all of their tolerances tighter. Higher precision of parts tolerance is usually a requirement for increased levels of automation in manufacturing - leading to greater overall precision. In hand assembly, things have to be manually adjusted to compensate for the lack of precision.

 

In any case,not to further rag on Leica, I have no reason to think any of the specific issues from the M8 will carry over to the S2 as the S2 is being built with completely different technology. But as it is a 37 megapixel camera, it will require the highest level of precision - however they get there.

[marcusperkins]

I wasn't talking about the rangefinder, I was talking about the lenses for the Leica.

 

The rangefinder is no doubt difficult to set up, but the reality is that it is actually very stable. If a lens is out on an M, it is always out by exactly the same amount each time it is used (so you can dial in focus compensation with confidence).

 

However, if they can get something so complicated, and with so many links in the chain, to have such tight tolerances in terms of real consistency, why can they not produce lenses with equal consistency with regards to the ring that drives the rangefinder cam?

 

There can be no reasonable excuse for lenses costing so much money to have such a variation. There clearly is no fixed standard to which Leica calibrate their lenses.

 

For a manufacturer like Leica who practically boasts about their standards of mechanical perfection, it is rather curious that these problems keep occuring. Somebody somewhere is not doing their job properly assembling these things, then the quality control people are not doing their job properly either, or they'd pick these issues up. If at least two departments are failing, then the problem must be endemic.

 

We all seem to have become blind to the huge cost of Leica equipment - some lenses cost almost as much as a new small car. Regardless of the reasons for the high prices, I think it is perfectly acceptable to expect near perfection with regards to the final product - that is after all the foundation on which Leica's marketing is based.

 

If they can't get the digital M line sorted out after three years of production, can we really believe they can get the S2 right?

[carstenw]

There can be no reasonable excuse for lenses costing so much money to have such a variation. There clearly is no fixed standard to which Leica calibrate their lenses.

 

Actually, there is, but Leica makes much of their own equipment, and the tolerance in the equipment used to tune all this was set up for film in the good old days. Digital pushes that much harder, and Leica is presumably redesigning the machines for sufficient tolerance for the current standards, and a bit into the future.

 

We all seem to have become blind to the huge cost of Leica equipment - some lenses cost almost as much as a new small car.

 

That's not much of a car you are talking about there.

[Photoskeptic]

That's not much of a car you are talking about there.

 

LOL

To all those who disparage the M8: I have had zero problems with mine over 2+ years. 'Nuf said.

If I received a windfall of funds I would buy the S2 and several of those lenses in a heartbeat. I would not even think twice about it. After all, it's ALL about the glass - just like it is with the M8.

[dfarkas]

Finally - yes, Leica will need pro-quality servicing if they are seriously getting back into the pro market. Loaner cameras by overnight express, and turnarounds under a week. Expensive, and tough to do for a small, low (or no) margin company.

 

Andy, all this is in the works. Leica fully understands the need for pro-level support with quick turnaround and overnight loaner equipment.

 

Also keep in mind that Leica isn't that small a company. They are larger than all the MFD manufacturers (the competition) combined. Leica is about 10 times larger than Phase One in terms of employees, R&D, manufacturing capability, and actual sales. Somehow, this fact seems to not be obvious to most.

 

David

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[adan]

Dave - yeah, we get used to comparing Leica to Nikon/Canon.

 

There was an LFI interview with Dr. Kauffman (I think after he tossed Steve Lee and took the reins himself, so a year ago) in which LFI raised the question of Leica service quality/speed, and Dr. K sort of brushed it off, along the lines of "Well, I haven't heard that many complaints. I don't think it's that big a problem." - allowing for translation.

 

I haven't had anything serviced since about that time, so maybe the attitude has changed. But when one considers that Leica recently delayed all M8 upgrades 5 weeks due to a shortage of parts -

 

http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/leica-m8-forum/81741-all-m8-upgrades-delayed-five-weeks.html

 

- one has to wonder...

[jaapv]

Japp,

 

I had a Jaguar once. My mechanic felt it was very dependable.

 

Well, I agree, so is mine. It had a problem with a barrier that came into its path at 160 Kph...

It is easy to find one example that you think may be at odds to one sentence in several long posts that I spent considerable time thinking about before writing. That does not really convince me. Consider handling, in total, all of the points I tried to make and let's see what you come up with.

 

Was your repair performed in the US? Three weeks is still a long time, but I don't know what was damaged. Instead of your example what about lenses that took weeks or months to get coded or have their focus adjusted? I haven't done a survey, but my understanding is that Canon and Nikon repairs are performed quickly - CPS says they attempt a three day turnaround for pro rush service. My little consumer p&s camera was repaired and returned in less than a week and this was not via CPS. By the way, when things are serviced by Leica, does the company follow up with an independent questionnaire to see what you thought of that service?

 

Separately, your one experience is somewhat irrelevant as there are so many posts on this site that complain about lengthy service times, repairs that were not correct and had to be done again, and equipment that was not right to begin with. When it comes to the S2 system, loaners and rental gear will have to be readily available even if repairs are performed promptly.

 

Regarding the M8... there are several niggling problems that seem to occur periodically on a regular basis, the cause and solution of which, I have never seen anyone explain. E.g. - what actually causes that high ISO line, and how do you know that it has been fixed and will not re-occur? What caused some of the body castings to fail when the camera is used on a tripod? Were some camera castings defective? Has the problem been isolated and models with defective castings have been recalled? Or has nothing been done and this is just a random issue that nobody understands, and they'll deal with on a case by case basis? No need to strengthen that connection either, right? And those green stripes, no progress on that either?

 

.

 

 

Hmm.. I have experience with Leica Customer Service Solms for over forty years - and it has been uniformly accurate and fast. The only time they screwed up (on a Digilux2) they were as aghast as I was, managed a four-day turnaround and sent me a free battery, an apology and tin of sweets.... Over the years my experience mount to dozens of contacts ( I used to beat up both my M and R cameras quite badly on foreign trips, still do, but the M8 and and R9 seem to withstand the (mal)treatment a lot better than the R4 to R7 series and the M6 and M4.)

The repair I mentioned was just a new front body shell, new top, new shutter, straighten sensor, and full adjust and repair a jammed focussing ring on the Summicron asph.

All other, mostly normal stuff, < I have not experienced any issues up till now in two and a half years...> were handled within about two weeks in regular service. I suppose express service would get it down to one week, but I don't feel like paying the extra money.

As for the broken body shell, there was a spate of those, four iirc, and much to my surprise never again, as it seems to be a combination of a slightly underengineered part and user error in replacing the bottom, which can lead to microcracks and late failure. One would expect to see it happening sporadically, but it doesn't...

Yes the sensor line. I doubt that it is restricted to these Kodak sensors, but sofar service on it has been good if I interpret the threads over here correctly.