holgerf Posted March 11, 2009 Share #1 Posted March 11, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) I know that many of you are very satisfied with the results of the D-Lux 4. So I had a closer look at this little beast, made same sample shots at my dealer, took the files home and had a closer look at it. The JPGs were as I had expected from what I had read before. But the RAW results were just terrible. I converted with C1 and compared the JPGs from the camera with the TIFF from C1 and found huge color fringe in the TIFFS which I never had seen like this before from any other compact digital camera. Please see the two crops below. The D-Lux 4 was recognized by C1 correctly. Here are my questions: (1) Did anybody taking RAW make similar experiences? (2) Is this a normal behavior? (3) Can it be that the camera corrects the data while generating the JPGs and the C1-profile does not? (4) What did I wrong? If this is a typical result with small cameras and RAW there can’t be a reason to shoot in RAW by any means. Looking forward to your advise. Cheers Holger D-Lux 4 | 100%-crop from upper left corner | RAW > TIFF with C1 Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! D-Lux 4 | 100%-crop from upper left corner | JPG from camera D-Lux 4 | JPG from camera Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! D-Lux 4 | 100%-crop from upper left corner | JPG from camera D-Lux 4 | JPG from camera ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/79103-d-lux-4-and-raw-terrible-result/?do=findComment&comment=836551'>More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted March 11, 2009 Posted March 11, 2009 Hi holgerf, Take a look here D-Lux 4 and RAW - terrible result?. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
jaapv Posted March 11, 2009 Share #2 Posted March 11, 2009 CA . You need to correct in Raw conversion, as the camera does, imo. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
burkey Posted March 11, 2009 Share #3 Posted March 11, 2009 Hello Holger, I have noticed with my D LUX 4 that JPegs from the camera are actually quite good. However, the RAW files, as is usually the case, do require some post processing, particularly in the sharpening area. Where did you focus in the image you used for the example? I'd like to see what that area of the image looks like. . . . Burkey Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dwind Posted March 11, 2009 Share #4 Posted March 11, 2009 I used lightroom 2.2 for processing the raw but found liked the jpegs better. The raw was no where near what you experienced though. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
holgerf Posted March 11, 2009 Author Share #5 Posted March 11, 2009 CA . You need to correct in Raw conversion, as the camera does, imo. @Jaap How do you correct CA in Raw conversion if it’s not already done by the profil? Best Holger Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
holgerf Posted March 11, 2009 Author Share #6 Posted March 11, 2009 Hello Holger,I have noticed with my D LUX 4 that JPegs from the camera are actually quite good. However, the RAW files, as is usually the case, do require some post processing, particularly in the sharpening area. Where did you focus in the image you used for the example? I'd like to see what that area of the image looks like. . . . Burkey @Burkey I know PP is necessary and some sharpening already has been applied. Shot was taken with widest angle 5,1mm. Just point & shoot with autofocus in the middle of the image. I don’t complain with the sharpness (though it’s bad) but I have no idea how to correct CA. Best Holger Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
burkey Posted March 11, 2009 Share #7 Posted March 11, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) Holger, I've not had the D LUX 4 very long and am still working through the PP part the image making with it. But I don't think I've seen that level of CA yet in my images. (But I really haven't looked too hard either.) I'll shoot a couple of image later today in a similar venue that your shot was made in and let you know what I see. Good luck. With my RD-1 ad G1 I pretty much work only with RAW but the JPEGS from the D LUX 4 are surprisingly good. Interesting. ;-) . . . Burkey Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted March 11, 2009 Share #8 Posted March 11, 2009 @Jaap How do you correct CA in Raw conversion if it’s not already done by the profil? Best Holger ACR for instance has a simple slider. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ho_co Posted March 12, 2009 Share #9 Posted March 12, 2009 Holger-- You hit the nail on the head in your point #3. All the Panasonic/Leicas have incorporated extra processing in the JPGs, but this camera implements a completely new idea in how it handles RAW. (See below.) There were a dozen or so threads on the topic when the camera first came out, in which I've posted photographic comparisons using different RAW processors. C1 doesn't correct the RWLs when producing DNGs, but does when producing TIFFs. Either 1) work from the TIFFs; or 2) convert the RWLs to DNGs with Adobe DNG converter or another Adobe product. Then open the DNGs in C1 or whatever you want. Example images at: http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/digital-forum/76810-d-lux-4-conversions.html. To recap what's happening-- The D-Lux 4's RWLs include both image information and processing information (i.e., CA and distortion correction data--first camera to do that). C1 incorporates that information in producing its TIFFs but not in its DNGs. Adobe has explained with every new iteration of ACR, LR, PSCS4 and DNG Converter that they process the distortion and CA information in all of their output. However, that requires de-mosaicking the DNG file to append the additional information, resulting in fully usable but much larger DNGs. Adobe says they intend to re-write the DNG specification to allow storing the corrections without de-mosaicking. Just FYI-- The C1 TIFFs appear to remove all distortion. The Adobe products leave 3% distortion. The C1 DNGs (available only in Capture 4.5.2) actually deliver the raw, unprocessed data to the file. C1 is the only product that made that possible. At Leica's request, that facility has been deleted from later versions of C1. I hope this helps. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
holgerf Posted March 12, 2009 Author Share #10 Posted March 12, 2009 C1 doesn't correct the RWLs when producing DNGs, but does when producing TIFFs. Either 1) work from the TIFFs Howard- Thanks a lot for your detailed answer which will help a lot. So I studied your explanation and also the linked thread. From this I understood that the problem I showed in my first post should be avoided by converting RAW to TIFF with C1. Problem: that’s exactly what I did and stated in my post. I checked once more and repeated the conversion: same result. I also checked whether I missed any option to activate or deactivate but found one. The screenshot below shows the adjustments I made for the conversion to TIFF. Any idea what I might have done wrong? Thanks and cheers Holger Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/79103-d-lux-4-and-raw-terrible-result/?do=findComment&comment=838546'>More sharing options...
macgarvin Posted March 12, 2009 Share #11 Posted March 12, 2009 I know that many of you are very satisfied with the results of the D-Lux 4. So I had a closer look at this little beast, made same sample shots at my dealer, took the files home and had a closer look at it. Hi Holger As others have indicated the problem is with the Capture 1 rather than intrinsic to the camera. If you are interested, you can do a search on the forum for 'macgarvin' and can find the results of various experiments I tried a few months back. If you open the raw files from within Adobe software( Lightroom, Photoshop, Camera Raw etc) the automatic conversion including correction for CA is fantastic, and it is easy to tweek it further should you wish. (Adobe offers trial downloads should anyone want to test it out). However for C1, CA correction requires an upgrade, and I think the results are worse for other aspects than in the Adobe software. Unfortunately (if you use Apple Aperture) after many months Apple still hasn't got round to adding RAW file compatibility for either D-Lux 4 or LX3, despite all the amazingly good reviews for both cameras. ho hum! All the best Malcolm Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
macgarvin Posted March 12, 2009 Share #12 Posted March 12, 2009 Just FYI--The C1 TIFFs appear to remove all distortion. The Adobe products leave 3% distortion. The C1 DNGs (available only in Capture 4.5.2) actually deliver the raw, unprocessed data to the file. C1 is the only product that made that possible. At Leica's request, that facility has been deleted from later versions of C1.. HI Ho_Co Somehow missed your reply before replying myself - Have had my head down for a while - so Leica asked C1 to remove the DNG facility, did they - not surprised, results looked truly dreadful to the uninitiated even though it was quite useful! best Malcolm Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
robsteve Posted March 12, 2009 Share #13 Posted March 12, 2009 Holger: What version of Capture One are you using? There was some mention about downgrading the C1 version to get the lens corrections. It may be in one of the threads the other posters linked. In the current versions of Capture One, only the pro version has the lens corrections tab. In the C1 Pro version, which I have, there is a lens correction tab to correct for CA. If you can send me that file, I will see if it makes a difference. Robert Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ho_co Posted March 13, 2009 Share #14 Posted March 13, 2009 Holger-- You're right to question my comment. I realized after my earlier post that you had already done what I thought would save your bacon. (Gehirnsfurze, wenn ich es so ausdrücken darf. ) I think Robert is right. My C1 TIFFs (from ver. 4.5.2 on Mac) are awesomely clean and a little better than the Adobe output. In version 4.6, Phase One eliminated the ability to process to DNG (which is the only place my version of Capture One shows the results you're getting), so I reverted to version 4.5.2. I may be wrong, but IIRC there was some problem with C1 4.6.1, and some folks reverted at least temporarily to 4.6.0. I think the current version is supposed to have corrected these errors. So, as Robert said: Check what version of C1 you're using. It may be that an earlier or later one will correct the problem. Unless there's something very peculiar going on, I do think that C1 Version 4.5.2 will produce excellent TIFFs, completely unlike what you're getting. I apologize for the tone of my previous post. Your problem is not the same one I was trying to solve. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ho_co Posted March 13, 2009 Share #15 Posted March 13, 2009 ... so Leica asked C1 to remove the DNG facility, did they ... Malcolm-- My source is http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/digital-post-processing-forum/76231-more-capture-one-difficulties.html#post793045. After that discovery, I decided to revert to version 4.5.2; but not being fluent with Capture One, I ran into tremendous problems doing so. I've been thinking of running the old version specifically to get these delightful DNGs, plus another that I keep up-to-date. But after my confusions trying to "downdate" to 4.5.2, I'm hesitant to do that right away. BTW--I knew that my examples were late additions and that someone had preceded me, but I didn't recall your name to be able to add it to my first post. No slight intended. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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