S2 and my impressions

[Guest guy_mancuso]

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Let me start this with some background that I think is important and a little different than Davids excellent blog post. Let's say I came into looking at the S2 with very skeptical emotions. Given the fact I own a MF system today and come form all of Leica's digital camera's at least the DMR and M8 and I know what to expect with Leica gear and how it works and how they think in a lot of ways. I also have very specific needs and problems also. My big concern with MF is speed in shooting, shutter delay , ISO, review, tethered and ISO and all stuff that I deal with today that can use some improvement. So believe it or not jumping over the moon to get a Leica per say is not a priority at all.So I did few this in a very neutral state. This takes some real care in thought for me to buy and still does even after the demo. Now I did the demo than went back and sat down with David and camera and had a semi-private chat. I did learn a few more things than maybe has been posted that I will share. My one concern is warranty and service and like the Phase module , Leica will offer 2 to 3 levels of service and repair and loaners. Obviously they will be priced accordingly which they should. Basic service most likely like the M8 with your normal warranty. Than another level that will have loaner service on a 24 or 48 hour turn to get a loaner. Thispart is still being developed so don't hang on every work. Basically you want loaner service than that will be at a higher price than the basic warranty. Which BTW all service and repairs are done in Solms or NJ.

 

Now here is another important part. All of this loaner service will go through preferred Leica dealers. So David being a preferred dealer I buy through him with this warranty he will handle my needs. Now let me add something just because a shop sells does not mean they are a preferred dealer. So only those dealers will be able to sell The S2 system and only those will handle all parts of it. Not sure how you get to be a preferred dealer but we can all guess. sales and service records that match those criteria set by Leica. I need to post this before my laptop shuts down

[Guest guy_mancuso]

Lets continue on with the camera. Well it is really well built and certainly up to Leica standards and rubber gaskets will be on back of all lenses and any opening on camera, battery, CF card door, under dials and the list goes on. So very well protected from the elements. I am just going to go random here to get thoughts down so jumping around is possible . LOL battery is 7.4 Volt 2500 and 18.5 watts or so . Not very big and a lot like a Canon 1d series in size maybe 2 inches big. There is a lever to release the battery like a mirror lock up style on the DMR. Lenses are very interesting and fall in two groups 72 and 82 filter size and they all look to use the same tubing size only bigger and smaller for each type of lens. They are not like a Nikon that start small at the mount and flare out. They start and stop the same size all the way though the barrel .

Okay let me jump back to camera speed . I felt little to no shutter lag and the release is in the same spot as the DMR and very user friendly which I still think to this day the best release around on the DMR and followed it's way to the S2 it is not on top but forward facing.

 

The FPS felt really nice coming from the MF world and faster than many to almost all of them. Due the 1 one thousand 2 one thousand and your pretty much there. Not Nikon or Canon speed but very fast and better than my back. AF one center point seemed very accurate with just a touch of hunting in low light, They all hunt so get over that one fast. Very normal and also the AF focusing was pretty quick when switching from one area to another. Again let me remind you this is no 35mm but MF and this world is slower but this Leica is very good at speed . Review was almost instant and so is zooming a huge plus here given the file size and a very nice 3 inch LCD . Which BTW will be sold without the saffire glass and also with it. The saffire glass in a 3 inch size is almost unheard of so the price for this option maybe high . But glad to see we have a option here and leica wanted folks to have this option because of the cost of the saffire. I think this was very good thinking myself. Okay the top deck display shutter , ISO, aperture and a few others looks really nice. Also the three in LCD you have a option to see all camera data with I love this feature. 4 push buttons to control menu , playback and other stuff and the menu system was leica clean. Very nice and I don't know all the options tonight but very well thought out. Vertical grip looked nice with it attached there will be a handstrap. Which I am all for the DMR was the best on the planet.

 

So the ergonomics are very nice. I was telling Jack on the phone if you walked into a store and picked up a D3 a lot like that very DSLR style. No i should explain this because in MF there is nothing like this kind of DSLR style. They are more boxy and square. So for me this is a huge welcome sign, because it does feel like that style which many of us like. Now it is heavy per say but you are talking Leica and build quality and that does not come in a light weight package

 

Okay I will continue in morning , too tired and typing on a laptop is not my idea of fun sitting in bed. Pardon the typo's

[Riccis]

 

Now here is another important part. All of this loaner service will go through preferred Leica dealers. So David being a preferred dealer I buy through him with this warranty he will handle my needs. Now let me add something just because a shop sells does not mean they are a preferred dealer. So only those dealers will be able to sell The S2 system and only those will handle all parts of it. Not sure how you get to be a preferred dealer but we can all guess. sales and service records that match those criteria set by Leica.

 

 

Guy:

 

Thanks for your post which brings an excellent point. While I don't know either how Leica decides what makes a preferred dealer, I highly recommend anyone planning to buy an S2 to contact David as he is, IMHO, the best and most knowledgeable Leica dealer out there. We don't know the price of the S2 yet, but it's clear that it will not be $3k and if I were buying such a big ticket item I will definitely give my business to the dealer that can support my needs the best.

 

Cheers,

[Overgaard]

Thanks for the insight. Very true with the MF-viewpoint tough I think dSLR users and MF users will find some common ground in the S2. But it's a very valid point if one is an M user and is trying to judge the new Leica "baby" from that viewpoint. Totally different world.

 

I find the DMR very easy to use in terms of size and weight. It's more a balance thing than a size/weight thing, actually. The only thing preventing me from shooting 1/60 and 1/30 with the DMR is the mirror slap; because the camera itself lies rock steady.

 

The lens barrel design is very interesting. Haven't thought about that but I like the 35-70/2.8 (which I know you've had as well) for that even design and the overall handling. And I think the S2 lenses will feel very much like that one.

 

Thanks so far. Hope to see more here and on Leica (M and R) - The GetDPI Workshop Forums

[Overgaard]

As for preferred dealers I have an impression these will be the Phase One dealers who are used to handle MF and pro photographers. And then on top of that some of the main Leica dealers such as Photografica in Denmark, Leica in Berlin, Dale in LA and similar large dealers.

[stevelap]

Thanks Guy, together with David's blog some good information coming out. David mentioned asking a question concerning EyeFi cards, but did they mention any progress with their own WiFi solution (fitting in the left strap-lug socket iirc) as discussed at photokina?

[stevelap]

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As for preferred dealers I have an impression these will be the Phase One dealers who are used to handle MF and pro photographers. And then on top of that some of the main Leica dealers such as Photografica in Denmark, Leica in Berlin, Dale in LA and similar large dealers.

 

I think you could be wrong about Phase dealers, unless they also happen to be a Leica dealer of course. Both David and Guy report '100% Leica and Leica dealers' for service.

 

In the UK some Leica dealerships are "Premier Dealers", presumably the same as "Preferred Dealers", and they would most likely be the one's who would carry the full S2 system.

The rental houses could be a different matter though.

[Guest guy_mancuso]

Preferred dealers are really any Leica retailer that fits Leica"s Pro dealer criteria. These outlets will sell the S2 and if you need a loaner than you will work with that dealer and Leica. The dealer actually will handle this warranty service. In short the camera goes down than you contact your dealer and it is handled from there. Rental houses are any rental houses that want to rent the S2 just like they will rent a Elinchrom lighting system. This is no different than any other gear if they carry the S2 than that is one shop you can rent from. Just like renting a Nikon . Samy's is a good example of rental shop that if they want to carry it as a rental than that is there choice. Now a retailer that sells the camera does not have to be a rental house either. David is not a rental house but does sell the S2. But a place like Calumet for example could actually do both sell and also be a rental house .So these can be very separate places. Depending on what that outlet's business model is. Really no different that what is in place today on the rental side just certain dealers that actually support the sale of the S2. A strictly mail order only type business will not be selling the S2. I guess one great way to look at this is the brick and mortar type Leica stores.

 

Correct Steve Leica dealers

[Guest guy_mancuso]

Adding to this in chunks sorry but having some batteries issue with my MBP

 

Lenses and this is the post I lost. At release there are 3 CS lenses ( central shutter/Leaf shutter) that will hit the streets the 70,120 macro and 180 than shortly a 35mm CS lens than they will start with release of the FP lenses ( focal Plane) which without the CS shutter will be a little less costly to us. So the 24 and 30mm shift will be FP lenses and than a interesting twist here and great idea. Leica say with the 180CS lens will also come out with a 180mm FP lens . So the buyer will have a choice of either going CS or FP lenses on what there needs maybe. Thisis a great way to save money. Some folks may only 1 or 2 CS lenses in there kits and the rest FP lenses so this will save them some money on purchase. Leica has thought through on the cost savings issue. Sapphire glass and non Sapphire glass for example. Also there was a working 180mm at the demo and I did play with that and it was very sharp on the LCD screen.

 

Also another note. It is at least figured to do a good ISO 800 and a great chance at 1600 as well with full resolution of the sensor. Leica like the Phase P65 Plus with sensor plus can bin down the resolution to give a smaller file and better ISO levels. Same here with the S2 and that is a 9.3 mpx binning and estimates are ISO 3200 or better . Now don't get all excited because until the final firmware and files are seen and tested this is still a question mark on true ISO values and what is great and what is noisy. Now being a MF shooter and also CCD sensors for the last 5 or 6 years pushing a CCD sensor over 1600 is a wet dream. Cmos different story but CCD and Kodak this one is tough. The only CCD Kodak is the P30 plus at 1600 and the Hassy H31 which just got upgraded to 1600. Now getting past 1600 or a amazing 1600 is a tall order. This is where i say show me the money. Not that I doubt Leica i doubt the technology to get there and also we all have a different what is a great looking ISO 1600 in our heads. This is the reality check

[elansprint72]

http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/leica-s2-forum/78409-s2-demo-pma-5.html

 

See post #87.

[Guest guy_mancuso]

So how do we really feel Pete

Quote:

Originally Posted by elansprint72

Given the current economic difficulties, would it perhaps not be sensible for Leica to designate one of its multi-lingual employees to participate on this and other similar fora, rather than leave it to self-appointed (though perhaps well-intentioned) third-party spokespersons, some of whom, seemingly, struggle to put together a decently composed and punctuated sentence in the English language?

The German-owned prestige UK car maker (presumably aiming at a similar client base to Leica) with whom I have had some slight involvement, certainly would not countenance a situation where rabid speculation (and supposedly learned opinions regarding future products) is rife.

 

 

Hey Pete. Do it yourself than. Like I really care what you say. Late at night got up at 3 am drove half the day do a whole show and just try to get info out. Not good enough for you than ask me if I give a crap. Keep your opinions that insult people that actually try and make a difference and go through at least the effort. Let me ask what the ______ have you done for me lately.

 

I do not take to insults very well and certainly not deserved when i helped put this all together with David.

__________________

[stunsworth]

Hey Pete. Do it yourself than

 

I think you meant to write 'then'.

[Guest guy_mancuso]

Here some more bad writing.

 

 

Some more thoughts i was saving but maybe a good time to talk about this. If you look up the definition of DSLR than you will realize this is exactly what the S2 is but with a fur coat on it. let me explain this , It is basically a D3x only with a lot more punch to it. Again just using the D3x for examples. If you are a DSLR shooter than going to a S2 will give you the same style of shooting and actually no different it is exactly the same in many many ways. Now the S2 has some big advantages over the DSLR out there first off nothing will touch it with image quality. You can argue this one forever but the fact is nothing in a DSLR package will match it and I will explain this. but first this is a Leica built camera so the build quality is outstanding with weather sealing , great optics and extremely fast on all counts but slower at FPS which stands to reason punching 37 mpx through a pipeline is much harder than 24 mpx. That is a given. Now i won't go into every detail that David has already covered and actually trying to write this different than he has written the blog with more tech details. He knows them much better than I do.

 

But I like to give the down and dirty common sense stuff. Now we all know and this battle has going on forever the bigger the better usually wins the battle in photography. Film , Digital there is no difference size matters. The S2 is a 37 mpx sensor that is obviously bigger than 35mm Full Frame and this sensor is very very close to Kodaks Sensor in the Phase P30 plus and Hassy H3 31 and several others that use this sensor . It is 6.8 microns and the S2 is 6 . Now I am going to use Phase as a example because i have shot and tested every back they own and I know the differences very well between them and given this S2 sensor and micron size this will be equal to or better than the P30 plus back , It is smaller but it does pack more MPX in the 6 micron and i tend to think this will be very equal to each other and plus or minus too. The P30 plus is a great back and not much can touch it but it does have micro lenses like the S2 does so they are pretty close to being on equal footing here. The bigger backs like the P45 plus/Hassy 39 backs are all 39mpx 6.8 micron backs and extremely good with amazing detail in them . Than the P65 plus and Hassy 50 are much bigger backs and pack a wallop of detail. The point here is the S2 will compare very well with there cousins in the MF market with 12 stops of DR and 14 bit ad converter to 16 bit. Frankly this maybe the least area of concern for me . I know the S2 will perform really well and I also know it will kill and 35mm DSLR out there in the image dept.. But for the Nikon /Canon guy out there wanting more mojo in there files than the S2 will be the answer to that and it will compare very well to it's MF cousins in around the same range of sensor and size even though it is smaller it will still be on those levels. What is not is a MF back that is different by definition and we have to look at that like I was mentioning it earlier. Bottom line you want the absolute most detail that is possible the S2 is not it. The P65 or Hassy 50 with a tech camera bolting on some tech lenses is the answer but it will compare well with the lessor backs than these monsters. We have to remember the intended purpose of the S2 and what it is aimed at and that is Fashion, weddings , PR to some degree and to get the best image you can from a DSLR which by definition is a Digital Single lens Reflex and exactly how I see this camera. It will pretty much bury anything in a DSLR arena and compare to the MF cousins in it's range.

__________________

[Guest guy_mancuso]

One small design thing that did bother me. The bottom part of the hand grip flares out a little bit and it did bug me as well as another person. Maybe they could shave that down a touch. Now this is a prototype and it certainly could be different on final design. Also not on the demo camera that Leica is putting on that many folks thought it needed was a Function button that you could customize under your right thumb . Aka AE lock, AF, lock EV , Mirror up. Many possibilities here and depends how much function they give it but a great idea and needed too. I think David talked about this on his blog so sorry for repeating.

[Guest guy_mancuso]

Wait one more comment. I am still worried how they will price this . I will mostly likely say this again too. This right now is a BIG issue given what is going on in the world and the work that seems to be sliding away for many folks of all walks of life.

[dfarkas]

Here some more bad writing.

 

 

Some more thoughts i was saving but maybe a good time to talk about this. If you look up the definition of DSLR than you will realize this is exactly what the S2 is but with a fur coat on it. let me explain this , It is basically a D3x only with a lot more punch to it. Again just using the D3x for examples. If you are a DSLR shooter than going to a S2 will give you the same style of shooting and actually no different it is exactly the same in many many ways. Now the S2 has some big advantages over the DSLR out there first off nothing will touch it with image quality. You can argue this one forever but the fact is nothing in a DSLR package will match it and I will explain this. but first this is a Leica built camera so the build quality is outstanding with weather sealing , great optics and extremely fast on all counts but slower at FPS which stands to reason punching 37 mpx through a pipeline is much harder than 24 mpx. That is a given. Now i won't go into every detail that David has already covered and actually trying to write this different than he has written the blog with more tech details. He knows them much better than I do.

 

But I like to give the down and dirty common sense stuff. Now we all know and this battle has going on forever the bigger the better usually wins the battle in photography. Film , Digital there is no difference size matters. The S2 is a 37 mpx sensor that is obviously bigger than 35mm Full Frame and this sensor is very very close to Kodaks Sensor in the Phase P30 plus and Hassy H3 31 and several others that use this sensor . It is 6.8 microns and the S2 is 6 . Now I am going to use Phase as a example because i have shot and tested every back they own and I know the differences very well between them and given this S2 sensor and micron size this will be equal to or better than the P30 plus back , It is smaller but it does pack more MPX in the 6 micron and i tend to think this will be very equal to each other and plus or minus too. The P30 plus is a great back and not much can touch it but it does have micro lenses like the S2 does so they are pretty close to being on equal footing here. The bigger backs like the P45 plus/Hassy 39 backs are all 39mpx 6.8 micron backs and extremely good with amazing detail in them . Than the P65 plus and Hassy 50 are much bigger backs and pack a wallop of detail. The point here is the S2 will compare very well with there cousins in the MF market with 12 stops of DR and 14 bit ad converter to 16 bit. Frankly this maybe the least area of concern for me . I know the S2 will perform really well and I also know it will kill and 35mm DSLR out there in the image dept.. But for the Nikon /Canon guy out there wanting more mojo in there files than the S2 will be the answer to that and it will compare very well to it's MF cousins in around the same range of sensor and size even though it is smaller it will still be on those levels. What is not is a MF back that is different by definition and we have to look at that like I was mentioning it earlier. Bottom line you want the absolute most detail that is possible the S2 is not it. The P65 or Hassy 50 with a tech camera bolting on some tech lenses is the answer but it will compare well with the lessor backs than these monsters. We have to remember the intended purpose of the S2 and what it is aimed at and that is Fashion, weddings , PR to some degree and to get the best image you can from a DSLR which by definition is a Digital Single lens Reflex and exactly how I see this camera. It will pretty much bury anything in a DSLR arena and compare to the MF cousins in it's range.

__________________

 

Guy, I think that the S2 IQ will not just equal/beat the P30+, but also the P45+. The P65 is a different story....

 

The P45+ at 39MP and the S2 at 37.5MP are pretty much a dead heat. Yes, the P45+ sensor is 36x48mm and the S2 is 30x45mm. So the larger sensor has only a 28% larger area than the S2. Remember that the 6um sensor tech in the S2 is the same latest generation that is now going into the H3DII/50/60 and P65+. The CCD in the P45+, while excellent, is now 4 or 5 year-old technology.

 

The S2 uses microlenses which are offset as they get towards the edge of the frame (just like the DMR and M8). This is unique to Leica, AFIK and really helps with the performance of wide angle lenses. It also should help improve high ISO performance, along with the Maestro image processor.

 

The lenses will be second-to-none, performance-wise. These are optics that can be shot wide-open with little-to-no-sacrifice in quality. Such can not be said of most existing MF lenses, which require stopping down to get to where they need to be. There are, of course, exceptions. But, the Leica S lineup is without flaw. Every single lens is reference-class. If you have a 60 MP back and a not-so-good lens mounted on the front, what is the quality of those pixels? How many here have ever mounted a Leica R lens on a 1DsII/III? Most Canon lenses are not up to the task of resolving 21MP, yet a 30-year old R lens handles it with ease. I would expect the same to happen in MF-land, except the S lenses take the performance of R and M lenses to a whole new level.

 

Along those same lines, the S2 is the only camera system that I know of that takes the optical characteristics of the CCD IR cover glass into account when designing the lenses. Insane.

 

There is also no play whatsoever in the lens mount or sensor. When dealing at these levels of detail, any weakness in the imaging chain will result in a loss of potential performance. Certain MF cameras are notorious for wiggly lenses. The tolerances are just too tight to have slop.

 

So, yeah, I think that the S2, despite a slightly smaller sensor than the P45, will, from a system perspective, beat the P45+/H3DII-39 on several counts of IQ: high ISO performance, dynamic range, per-pixel detail, overall sharpness, micro-contrast, bokeh, and "feel." Not to mention lens specific strengths like lack of CA, vignetting, distortion, field curvature, coma, flare, and ghosting, as well as being able to shoot wide-open and still maintain good contrast and corner sharpness. And just to be 100% clear about this, Leica will not be making S-series lenses available in any mount other than for the S2 (and the future R10 with an electronically coupled adapter). No Leica glass for Mamiya. Sorry.

 

David

[wildlightphoto]

... Leica will not be making S-series lenses available in any mount other than for the S2 (and the future R10 with an electronically coupled adapter).

 

David, is this tidbit about electronically-controlled R10 lenses info from Leica? Given the S2's technology it makes logical sense but I'd like to know if this is anything more than speculation.

[dfarkas]

David, is this tidbit about electronically-controlled R10 lenses info from Leica? Given the S2's technology it makes logical sense but I'd like to know if this is anything more than speculation.

 

Not speculation. I learned this info at Photokina and reconfirmed it with the product manager just a few days ago at PMA. S lenses will be fully functional on the R10 (or whatever they end up calling it) with the use of a Leica-made adapter.

 

David

[andreas_thomsen]

i don't believe in professional service by leica dealers. they are used to deal with dentist and lawyers and not with pros.

as long as calumet and others are not going to accept the S2 it will not work.

anyhow it's a nice camera for rich amateurs

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Hallo,

Look here: Interesting Leica gear

[georg]

Did they show you some sample-pictures on screen? I've seen one from the 2,5/70 at open aperture - it was at least as sharp as the 39MP-systems. They'll have to make some smaple shots under conditions that work quite well today with the prototypes - as far as I have seen it, they have very littly to hide!

 

What about the resolution of the display? 480x960 or more?

 

I always wondered how good the sensor-performance of the new 6,0µm-Kodak-CCDs is. The H3DII-50 and the S2 use the same technology but nobody did actually compare (noise, DR) the performance (6,8µm vs. 6,0µm or 39MP vs. 50MP-Hasselblad) of them!?

The 6,8µm-architecture is already 4 years old, I'll hope they improved it!?

 

I know that one of the most important topics in sensor-design is the fill-rate, while having a smaller pixel-pitch they'll try to keep the sensitive photosite-area at least the same size (Canon claimed that on their 1ds-models from 11-21MP and the old 9µm-CCDs actually have a similar "active area" as their 6,8µm-successors). But doesn't make this progress microlenses more and more useless (they capture the light and focus it on the light sensitive areas instead of the gaps between them)? On the 6,8µm-generation microlenses increased actual sensitivity by about one stop - what's with the higher fill-rate of today's architectures like H3D-50 vs. S2? Using no microlenses at all would be one possible solution for a full-frame-M9.

 

"Along those same lines, the S2 is the only camera system that I know of that takes the optical characteristics of the CCD IR cover glass into account when designing the lenses. Insane."

 

As far as I know, the Digitar/HR-lenses do the same thing, that's why they offer a special cover glass for using film. But somehow they must ensure that back-makers don't change the cover-glasses significantly!?