robsteve Posted January 28, 2009 Share #21 Posted January 28, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) I think it may all be related to the loss of distortion correction when converted to a DNG. I read somewhere that Adobe is working on implementing the distortion correction, that Leica stores in the RWL file. It has something to do with the DNG format not currently supporting the application of lens corrections stored in the DNG. Currently, as explained in a post above, Adobe has to apply the corrections when converting the RWL to DNG, so it must be written a a linear files, which means big uncompressed files. It may be that Leica doesn't want these RWLs converted to DNG and loose the software correction that should be applied to them when opening the RAW file. I assume Capture One understands Leica's software corrections stored in the file and that if shooting Jpegs, the camera does the correction. Robert Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted January 28, 2009 Posted January 28, 2009 Hi robsteve, Take a look here More Capture One Difficulties. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
sandymc Posted January 28, 2009 Share #22 Posted January 28, 2009 I think it may all be related to the loss of distortion correction when converted to a DNG. No - if you use Adobe's DNG converter it will correct for lens distortion (although in a slightly different way to the supplied Panasonic/Leica Silkypix software). The issue is that, as mentioned above, what you end up with is a corrected, but demosaiced, file. So it's no longer in any real sense a raw file. Here for a winge on the subject that goes into more detail : Panasonic and Adobe - The Case Against DNG Sandy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
robsteve Posted January 28, 2009 Share #23 Posted January 28, 2009 No - if you use Adobe's DNG converter it will correct for lens distortion (although in a slightly different way to the supplied Panasonic/Leica Silkypix software). I was referring to the loss of image correction if "Capture One" converts it to a DNG. I am only guessing here though. I see you mention SilkyPix. Is Capture One not supplies by Leica as mentioned by the original poster? Robert Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shootist Posted January 28, 2009 Share #24 Posted January 28, 2009 I was referring to the loss of image correction if "Capture One" converts it to a DNG. I am only guessing here though. I see you mention SilkyPix. Is Capture One not supplies by Leica as mentioned by the original poster? Robert C1 is supplied by Leica and Silkypics by Panasonic. The Pana software will not read the Leica files. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sandymc Posted January 28, 2009 Share #25 Posted January 28, 2009 I see you mention SilkyPix. Is Capture One not supplies by Leica as mentioned by the original poster? Actually, I'm not sure - I've only ever seen the Panasonic camera in the flesh. Sandy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie Roberts Posted January 28, 2009 Share #26 Posted January 28, 2009 {snipped}I guess you mean I can make adjustments (edits) on my RWL files with C1 and then output the results as a TIFF or JPEG. However, as I first said, I'm not willing (too lazy) to learn C1 at the moment. PS3 will not open my RWL files. It will open DNGs. So it seems to me that I need to convert to DNG files, if I want to edit images that have the most data. I assume ACR stand for "Adobe Camera Raw" and, again, either I don't have it or I don't know where to find it. {snipped} Stephen, Well, if you're not willing to learn the program that supports the RAW file you shoot with, you can hardly blame them for not supporting your desire to use a competing program Ed (Shootist) has it completely right: your option is to move to Adobe Photoshop CS4 (and get the newest version of Adobe Camera RAW (ACR) with that upgrade) OR use the Adobe converter. OR you can learn the basics of C1 in about 30 minutes, and the program is free to you, and IMO much better than ACR anyway. It's not really a hard program to learn at all, and it gives great results, and the video education C1 has is very good. But you can't expect them to support your workflow through Photoshop's raw converter Just my opinion--YMMV. Another way to say this is that you really have is "Photoshop difficulities" not "Capture One Difficulties" Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ho_co Posted January 28, 2009 Share #27 Posted January 28, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) ... So it's no longer in any real sense a raw file. ... Okay, now I'm getting nit-picky, Sandy, just so I can ask you to straighten me out: Adobe's original specification for DNG allowed the possibility for demosaicking the file (although it wasn't necessary to do that until the RW2/RWL files came along). And those linearized files can be read by anything that can open a DNG file. Upshot (to my brain) is that this is still a DNG, and DNG is a raw format, so it is in some sense a raw file, isn't it? In other words, what distinguishes a true raw file to you? I suppose it's raw only if it is written in the same mosaic form as dumped by the sensor? Here for a winge on the subject that goes into more detail : Panasonic and Adobe - The Case Against DNG Thanks for the link. But now apparently Leica is dictating to Phase One as well that this option be made unavailable. I think that's unconscionable. I wonder whether the impetus came from Panasonic, from Leica, or from both. ... Ed (Shootist) has it completely right: your option is to move to Adobe Photoshop CS4 (and get the newest version of Adobe Camera RAW (ACR) with that upgrade) OR use the Adobe converter. ... Stephen, moving to PSCS4 may be your best bet. Otherwise, just download the latest Adobe DNG converter. It's a free standalone and easy to use for batch processing. Just put all your RWLs in one folder and point the converter at that folder. You'll then have all the originals plus DNGs that can be read by any program that can read DNGs (e.g. PSCS 3). ... OR you can learn the basics of C1 in about 30 minutes, and the program is free to you, and IMO much better than ACR anyway. It's not really a hard program to learn at all, and it gives great results, and the video education C1 has is very good.... Jamie and I aren't in full agreement here, but pretty close: I've never taken the time to learn Capture One, have 'never gotten around' to viewing the videos, and find the program clunky. (That would obviously change if I took the time to give it its due.) Nonetheless, the basics of getting it to find your files and open them so you can convert them to TIFF are unintuitive but doable over the course of an hour spent clicking tabs to try to figure out "What does that mean?" As Jaime and others pointed out, TIFFs are universal, just as DNG is/was supposed to be. One other point: The version of Capture One that came with the D-Lux 4 will read its RWLs and convert them either to TIFF or to DNG (back to where we started). Apparently if you download the current, "improved" version of Capture One--a free upgrade under the C1 license you got with the D-Lux 4--you'll no longer be able to process to DNG from the RWLs. The downside of this is that the C1 DNGs are really pretty messy for most purposes. And that gets back to 'why take one raw format over another,' so we're going in circles. That is, sticking with the version of C1 that came with the D-Lux 4 gives you more versatility, but the cleaner DNGs come from Adobe DNG converter. (And one day, Adobe will likely be able to update that program to write more compact, mosaicked, full-info DNGs. Sigh.) IOW: Take a bit of time to figure out the basics of C1 as you now have it. My experience, like Jamie's, is that C1's colors are better than those of the Adobe products. But now we're getting onto another topic, and Sandy has offered some help in another thread about training Lightroom to produce colors that are more like those of C1. One point to take from all this is that someone is always about to change something in this business, and you and I are expected to learn the new way pretty darn fast. We'll always be behind the curve. Our goal is simply not to be hopelessly behind. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sandymc Posted January 29, 2009 Share #28 Posted January 29, 2009 ...In other words, what distinguishes a true raw file to you? I suppose it's raw only if it is written in the same mosaic form as dumped by the sensor?..... Yes, whether or not the image has be demosaiced, because their are significant differences in performance between different packages in this regard, but also whether you have moved from the camera sensor color space to a user color space (eg., Prophoto or whatever). Raw files, in my humble opinion, are in the sensor space.....both as regards demosaicing and color space. Sandy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ho_co Posted January 29, 2009 Share #29 Posted January 29, 2009 Thanks, Sandy. Makes sense. I hadn't even considered the color spaces involved. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tizio Posted January 29, 2009 Author Share #30 Posted January 29, 2009 Howard, Thanks again. I have the latest DNG converter and, yes, it generates files that allow me to work with PSCS3. I plan to revert back to C1 4.0 so as to have the options we've discussed, when and if I need them. For me the issue is resolved, and I thank one and all. But, while I'm at it (haha) ... what's the deal with Graphic Converter 6.3? Thanks again, Stephen Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted January 29, 2009 Share #31 Posted January 29, 2009 It is not really resolved. CS3 uses ACR 4.6, which does not accept RWL files. They need to be run through the DNG converter first, which produces 35-50 Mb DNGs. LR 2.2 and CS4 use ACR 5.2, which does accept LRW files, but as I do not wish to use either LR or CS4, it is an extremely unsatisfactory workflow. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul McMullin Posted February 25, 2009 Share #32 Posted February 25, 2009 Recently bought a D-Lux4 for a particular job next month. Glad I got it early. As dicussed in previous posts CS3 will not open the raw files. Not a problem as the camera comes shipped with capture 4.1.3. All fine and dandy. Test Images uploaded into C1 it sees them, I can make corrections to them etc etc but will it let me actually process them to save as Tiffs? nope. I believe Im pretty good computer wise and unless Im missing something very basic or Im having a 'senior moment' I cannot see how to get the file into the folder which will then open up in CS3. I really do not wish to upgrade to CS4 at the present time as Im I the iddle of printing an exhibition so is not an option Any ideas anyone? best wishes paul Mc mcmullin:architecture Dont get me started on the lack of availability of the 24mm viewfinder - totally absurd!!! Im looking at the alternatives. One store I spoke to have 30 on back order with 24 people having paid and waiting for them. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shootist Posted February 25, 2009 Share #33 Posted February 25, 2009 Have you registered the software with Phase one on there website? It may have a restriction to not export/process images unless it's registered. Also there is a update to 4.6.1. Which you can get for free after you register your current version. Recently bought a D-Lux4 for a particular job next month. Glad I got it early. As dicussed in previous posts CS3 will not open the raw files. Not a problem as the camera comes shipped with capture 4.1.3. All fine and dandy. Test Images uploaded into C1 it sees them, I can make corrections to them etc etc but will it let me actually process them to save as Tiffs? nope. I believe Im pretty good computer wise and unless Im missing something very basic or Im having a 'senior moment' I cannot see how to get the file into the folder which will then open up in CS3. I really do not wish to upgrade to CS4 at the present time as Im I the iddle of printing an exhibition so is not an option Any ideas anyone? best wishes paul Mc mcmullin:architecture Dont get me started on the lack of availability of the 24mm viewfinder - totally absurd!!! Im looking at the alternatives. One store I spoke to have 30 on back order with 24 people having paid and waiting for them. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ho_co Posted February 25, 2009 Share #34 Posted February 25, 2009 ... Test Images uploaded into C1 it sees them, I can make corrections to them etc etc but will it let me actually process them to save as Tiffs? nope... Paul-- Welcome to the forum. Best thing for you to do IMHO is download the latest version of the Adobe DNG converter. That will convert the RWLs to DNGs for CS3. It took a couple hours for me to figure out how C1 thinks. It's a horrendously geeky, unintuitive program. And I can't help you much because although I've been able to set it up, I can't describe how. Click around on the little icons at the top of the left panel. One of them will let you choose a folder as input source. The last two of that string of icons contain gears. Clicking the big gear allows you to set up what you want done (like convert to TIFF). Then if you're working on a single image, select it and click "process." (I guess that will work.) Since I batch-convert, instead I select all the files I want converted and hold down the shift key while clicking the "process" button. In my case, the files are then sequentially converted (I can watch that process by clicking the 3-gear icon) and stored in a folder titled "Output" in the "pictures" folder of my hard drive. I'm sure there's a way to reset this, but I'm so annoyed by C1 that I don't want to try to figure it out. My advice is to just keep clicking things till you figure it out. It's hellishly frustrating, but you're already close. A couple caveats: 1) It's generally agreed that C1 produces better color than any of the Adobe products, so a number of forum members generally use Lightroom or Photoshop, but switch to C1 when they want the best output. 2) There are training videos at the Phase One web site (and on the D-Lux 4 disc?) that some find very helpful. 3) There are people who find C1 easy to use and can't figure out why I've got such distaste for it. They'll probably be around in a few minutes with a concise answer to your question. In the meantime, I hope this has helped a little. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimbo035 Posted February 26, 2009 Share #35 Posted February 26, 2009 Version 4.1.3. came with my D-Lux 4. I have tried to upgrade to the latest version without success, presumably because my Mac Mini OS is Tiger (10.4.11) or maybe because it only has 512MB of memory. In any case I find Capture One too complex and although the Guide (on page 28) says I can export an file "to any folder on the local machine" I have searched in vain to discover how . About to give up in despair, uninstall the program and defect to PS Elements 7 with the free Camera Raw 5-2 plug-in already downloaded and waiting. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul McMullin Posted March 2, 2009 Share #36 Posted March 2, 2009 Hi all, thanks for the replies, apologies for delay coming back - work beckoned (shot on Nikon D3's - sorry guys) Did the work around by converting to DNG and then opening in CS3. Not ideal but it works. Picked up a 21mm Voigtlander viewfinder as noone could supply a leica 24mm. Its very close to the 24mm field of view so thats OK - Im not worried about the fact the flash will not pop up. Now I need to work out how to shoot very fast with minimal or no shutter lag probably with a fixed manual focus? thanks again for the replies and the welcome as a new Leica user. paul Mc Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ho_co Posted March 3, 2009 Share #37 Posted March 3, 2009 Version 4.1.3. came with my D-Lux 4. I have tried to upgrade to the latest version without success, presumably because my Mac Mini OS is Tiger (10.4.11) or maybe because it only has 512MB of memory. Jim--According to the release notes that came with Capture One version 4.5.2, recommended minimum Mac configuration is: • Intel-based Macs • 1 GB of RAM (2 GB when working with digital backs) • 10 GB of free hard disk space • Calibrated color monitor with 1280 x 800, 24 bit resolution at 96dpi screen ruling • Mac OS X 10.5.5 or later Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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