Now We're Cooking With Oil!

[billh]

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Hi Sean,

 

That review was clearly an immense amount of work in a very short time period!

 

Which 28 f2.8 were you using, an old one which had been encoded, or the new asph?

 

It will be interesting to see the transitional areas from in focus to out of focus with some of the non-Leica lenses when you get around to it. Do you have the APO 75, 50ASPH and the Noctilux available for testing? The Noctilux is very soft wide open with film, but I wonder if it might prove to be more usable at ISO 1250 with a little selective usm. At the moment I use the 85 f1.2 and the 1Ds2 for very dark situations, but the small, considerably lighter weight M8 would be very appealing.

 

How does the M8 shutter sound compare to a film M and to the RD-1?

 

Thanks,

 

Bill

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[sean_reid]

Hi Sean,

 

1. That review was clearly an immense amount of work in a very short time period!

 

2. Which 28 f2.8 were you using, an old one which had been encoded, or the new asph?

 

3. It will be interesting to see the transitional areas from in focus to out of focus with some of the non-Leica lenses when you get around to it. Do you have the APO 75, 50ASPH and the Noctilux available for testing? The Noctilux is very soft wide open with film, but I wonder if it might prove to be more usable at ISO 1250 with a little selective usm. At the moment I use the 85 f1.2 and the 1Ds2 for very dark situations, but the small, considerably lighter weight M8 would be very appealing.

 

4. How does the M8 shutter sound compare to a film M and to the RD-1?

 

Thanks,

 

Bill

 

 

Hi Bill,

 

1. Yes, it sure was.

 

2. New one

 

3. This will all come up in the lens test articles.

 

4. Discussed this in part one, quieter and lower pitched than Epson, just a bit louder than M7

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

[mitchell]

Sean,

 

Nice job in a very short time! Nice pictures.

 

I expected no less. !:^)

 

All our fears are abated, and I'm happily looking forward to laying my cash on the counter.

 

This is going to be a great camera! Could do alot for Leica.

 

In the mean time now that the suspense is gone, your further review will make the waiting more fun and edifying.

 

Enjoy your drink, and thanks.

 

Mitchell

[rvaubel]

Hi Mark,

 

...............The 5D is the current reference standard for noise and so I compare many cameras to it.

 

I think the M8 does quite well through ISO 1250.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

 

Sean

 

My hope for the M8 is, it will do noise wise at ISO 1250 what the RD1 does at 800. That would be a significent impovement especially since the you report the M8 to actually have +1/3 stop sensitivity from nominal. That's a full stop better noise performance, overall.

 

Couple that with better resolution (10MP vs 6MP), and bettter QA and customer support and we may have a winner, a camera worth 5K.

 

On thing that you didn't really touch on but is equally important is dynamic range. This is probably related to the 16bit vs 8bit issue which is an important consideration. Sean, what does the EXIF file say with regards the file depth?

 

Good work on your report. Worth every penny

 

Rex

ARF,ARF...ARF!!!

[sean_reid]

Sean,

 

Nice job in a very short time! Nice pictures.

 

I expected no less. !:^)

 

All our fears are abated, and I'm happily looking forward to laying my cash on the counter.

 

This is going to be a great camera! Could do alot for Leica.

 

In the mean time now that the suspense is gone, your further review will make the waiting more fun and edifying.

 

Enjoy your drink, and thanks.

 

Mitchell

 

Thanks very much.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

[sean_reid]

Sean

 

My hope for the M8 is, it will do noise wise at ISO 1250 what the RD1 does at 800. That would be a significent impovement especially since the you report the M8 to actually have +1/3 stop sensitivity from nominal. That's a full stop better noise performance, overall.

 

Couple that with better resolution (10MP vs 6MP), and bettter QA and customer support and we may have a winner, a camera worth 5K.

 

On thing that you didn't really touch on but is equally important is dynamic range. This is probably related to the 16bit vs 8bit issue which is an important consideration. Sean, what does the EXIF file say with regards the file depth?

 

Good work on your report. Worth every penny

 

Rex

ARF,ARF...ARF!!!

 

Hi Rex,

 

Thanks. DR is on deck for the next article. ISO noise is pretty much matched between the two DRFs. ISO 1250 (1600 actual) on the M8 is very similar to 1600 on R-D1.

 

I just expanded the ISO section to show further examples and discussion.

 

And some people have wondered why I get paid for this...<G>

 

Best,

 

S

[marknorton]

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Yes, my thanks too for a huge amount of work; very good of the kind folk of Keene, NH to put on such a lavish celebration of the arrival of the Leica M8.... Certainly looks like the combination of the M8 and the 28mm is a winner.

 

You mention is ISO rating for the M8 and 5D is 1/3 stop higher than nominal where its seems to be spot-on for the R-D1 and D200. How then is the exposure meter calibrated - against the actual or nominal ISO? If nominal, is there a tendency to slight over-exposure?

[fnuernberger]

Thanks for the extensive review, Sean.

 

The 5d seems to have a one-stop-advantage over the M8 but it's not much worse than my 1dMK2. Actually, this was all I was hoping for.

 

But then, I assume, the M8 still retains the rangefinder advantage in terms of steadiness - no mirror-slap. While the 5D might have the edge when photographing indoor sports which call for short exposure times, the M8 might regain its lead when it comes to slower moving subjects: people talking at a reception, laughing with each other at candle light.

 

With a 5D you might switch to 3200, 50mm lens @ 1.2 and might have to stay at 1/60 to make sure you get a sharp shot, you could set the

 

M8 to 1250 (1600), 50mm at f1.2 and get decent shots at 1/30 or even 1/15th, then you open the aperture to f1.0 and get a further 2/3rds of a stop. (well if people aren't laughing too much/ moving too fast while at it)

[billh]

Thanks for the extensive review, Sean.

 

The 5d seems to have a one-stop-advantage over the M8 but it's not much worse than my 1dMK2. Actually, this was all I was hoping for.

 

But then, I assume, the M8 still retains the rangefinder advantage in terms of steadiness - no mirror-slap. While the 5D might have the edge when photographing indoor sports which call for short exposure times, the M8 might regain its lead when it comes to slower moving subjects: people talking at a reception, laughing with each other at candle light.

 

With a 5D you might switch to 3200, 50mm lens @ 1.2 and might have to stay at 1/60 to make sure you get a sharp shot, you could set the

 

M8 to 1250 (1600), 50mm at f1.2 and get decent shots at 1/30 or even 1/15th, then you open the aperture to f1.0 and get a further 2/3rds of a stop. (well if people aren't laughing too much/ moving too fast while at it)

 

The ISO 2500 noise looks a lot worse to me than my 1Ds2 at ISO3200. I have not used the 5D, but the weight of the heavier cameras can often act as a damper to vibration. These were both taken from the deck of an anchored sailboat with a hand held Rollei 6008 at 1/30 second. The weight of that camera helps dampens mirror vibration.

 

http://homepage.mac.com/billh96007/.Pictures/Flower%20calendar/Dec-05,-scene.jpg

 

http://homepage.mac.com/billh96007/.Pictures/Flower%20calendar/Jan-05,-scene.jpg

 

The 1Ds2 has the same quality - a couple of weeks ago I used it at a reception with the 70~200 f2.8IS at 200mm wide open, ISO3200, hand held at 1/20 second, and there is not a trace of movement in the image. For me the lure of the M8 is the size and weight, and the different way (intimacy, for want of a better term) of working with an M camera vs a large SLR.

[sean_reid]

Yes, my thanks too for a huge amount of work; very good of the kind folk of Keene, NH to put on such a lavish celebration of the arrival of the Leica M8.... Certainly looks like the combination of the M8 and the 28mm is a winner.

 

You mention is ISO rating for the M8 and 5D is 1/3 stop higher than nominal where its seems to be spot-on for the R-D1 and D200. How then is the exposure meter calibrated - against the actual or nominal ISO? If nominal, is there a tendency to slight over-exposure?

 

Hi Mark,

 

Yes, both the 5D and M8 run a 1/3 stop more sensitive than their nominal ratings (which is an asset, they're performing beyond spec.). Phil Askey has found the same thing for the Canon cameras (full M8 review not done yet). The metering for both seems to be calibrated to the cameras' actual sensitivity. In my experience, there is essentially no downside to a camera outperforming it's ISO specs.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

[sean_reid]

Thanks for the extensive review, Sean.

 

The 5d seems to have a one-stop-advantage over the M8 but it's not much worse than my 1dMK2. Actually, this was all I was hoping for.

 

But then, I assume, the M8 still retains the rangefinder advantage in terms of steadiness - no mirror-slap. While the 5D might have the edge when photographing indoor sports which call for short exposure times, the M8 might regain its lead when it comes to slower moving subjects: people talking at a reception, laughing with each other at candle light.

 

With a 5D you might switch to 3200, 50mm lens @ 1.2 and might have to stay at 1/60 to make sure you get a sharp shot, you could set the

 

M8 to 1250 (1600), 50mm at f1.2 and get decent shots at 1/30 or even 1/15th, then you open the aperture to f1.0 and get a further 2/3rds of a stop. (well if people aren't laughing too much/ moving too fast while at it)

 

That's absolutely true so long as the photographer is steady and, as you mention, subject movement is not a factor. I would say that the "hand-holdability" of the M8 is a full two stops better than my 1Ds was. Mirror slap certainly is a factor in this equation and one can feel the difference using the R-D1 or M8 next to an SLR.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

[jlm]

thanks for the work Sean; I see you still wear your bush hat while photographing

 

did you try comparing the 28, coded, with coding on and off, re. vignetting?

[sean_reid]

thanks for the work Sean; I see you still wear your bush hat while photographing

 

did you try comparing the 28, coded, with coding on and off, re. vignetting?

 

Hi jlm,

 

That's for the next article, along with DR, comparisons with R-D1, etc. I have a coded 21 here as well to test.

 

Also need to get two client jobs out soon...

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

[wparsonsgisnet]

OK, nice review -- totally expected. That why I subscribed.

 

As a result of reading the review:

1. I'm really happy that my M8 will be here in a few weeks.

2. I'm really happy I bot the 24mm lens, based on Sean's images. this lens is used in the part II review, to good cause.

3. I'm really happy that Sean finds that the 28 (and by my implication) the 24 are such natural lenses to use on the M8. This makes me even more delighted that he made me buy the 24mm lens.

 

4. In the review, Sean says that he doesn't see significant vignetting. On page 3 of the M8 Product Information manual it states that the thickness of the cover glass has been reduced 0.5mm at the edges to correct for vignetting. If Leica got it right, that' s really terrific.

 

Thanks to Sean for yet another succinct, clear, and helpful review. It's frustrating to see that all his pictures are so excellent.

 

So, I'm giving Sean all the credit for now: for validating my purchase decision, for making me buy an expensive lens, and for providing such good reading and handsome images. BUT, when I start taking pix, if anything turns out, I'm taking all the credit. Sean who?

 

Regards to all.

[albertwang]

Did I miss the block party? Any leftovers?

 

On a serious note, I am very excited to see the results. Of course I'm still aching for those macro lenses too.

[sean_reid]

OK, nice review -- totally expected. That why I subscribed.

 

4. In the review, Sean says that he doesn't see significant vignetting. On page 3 of the M8 Product Information manual it states that the thickness of the cover glass has been reduced 0.5mm at the edges to correct for vignetting. If Leica got it right, that' s really terrific.

 

Regards to all.

 

Hi Bill,

 

Thanks very much. One technical clarification:

 

The cover glass is .5 mm all the way across to reduce internal reflections. The vignetting control is coming primarily from the offset microlenses in the outer areas of the sensor.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

[rfleica]

very good of the kind folk of Keene, NH to put on such a lavish celebration of the arrival of the Leica M8

 

LOL. That's exactly what I thought too!!

[craigrmurray]

Hi Sean: Say, do you eat benzedrine for breakfast, or what? How do find time to shoot pix, write the reviews, deal with Leica and the other manufacturers, ride motorcycles, read photo/art books, and have a professional photography business? Oh, and a private life when you're not answering forum posts?

 

I do have a speculative question: do you think Leica is planning a 28mm Summilux? With the 1.33x problem, my normal lens for the last 30 years (35mm Summilux) now becomes too long. Plus, the new 28mm f2.8 is slower, for Chrissakes!. I know it was designed for the entry level lens, pricewise, and is supposedly the "pancake" lens (always thought that was a stupid term, BTW). But shouldn't a fast wide/normal lens be a priority, since vibration reduction technology is pretty much impossible/improbable in a manual focusing, front-end diaphram lens, for low-light photography?

 

Love your reviews and forum postings, Sean. I suppose it would sound superfluous to say "keep up the good work".

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[wparsonsgisnet]

One technical clarification:

 

The cover glass is .5 mm all the way across to reduce internal reflections. The vignetting control is coming primarily from the offset microlenses in the outer areas of the sensor.

 

Sean, yes, I see now that that is what they may have meant to say. The Korean who translated from the German to the English made the two sentences in the Product Information pdf unclear.

 

I thot they were saying the cover glass was thinner at the edges. They are saying it is a uniform 0.5 mm thick to reduce unwanted refraction. The second sentence, in which they attribute reduced vignetting to this cause, is then nonsense. I knew about the offsetting of the micro lenses at the corners.

 

I'm sorry to confuse the issue with a misunderstanding It's a lousy document.

[humanized_form]

Th Sonnar is coming, I believe. How big are you planning to print?

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

 

i think i would be happy if i could use an M8 file to make 16x20 color prints that were of extremely high quality, that would be really great. when i get drum scans made from 35mm slides i feel most comfortable with the image quality at 11x14 print size, and usually associate high quality 16x20 prints with medium format cameras.

 

i think that's why i was really intrigued by the medium format angle of the review, especially when comparing the size of the M8 to a medium format rangefinder camera like the Mamiya 7.

 

kevin