Sean Reid's review of S2 prototype

[sean_reid]

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By default the camera is in A mode. You can turn the thumb dial to adjust aperture. If you want to change to P mode, you press the dial in. Then you can turn the dial to perform a program shift. To get to M mode, turn the shutter speed dial off of A. Turn the thumb wheel to change aperture and use the shutter speed dial to adjust shutter speed (obvious, I know). To get to T mode, press the thumb dial.

David

 

No wonder I couldn't remember exactly how that system worked.<G> Thanks David.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

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[carstenw]

It sounds workable, but honestly, I don't know why camera makers feel compelled to keep reinventing the wheel. A dial for shutter speed, and ring for aperture, a lever for M/A/S/P and a button+dial for exposure compensation is pretty much the way things have been done for ages now, with probably the most successful implementation by Nikon (or the Contax 645), with no dual-function buttons. It is direct, intuitive, fast, and with the correct viewfinder readout, can be done without moving the camera from the eye. Why all the attempts at changing something which isn't broken? Why ignore the lessons of past?

 

I can live with the aperture on the wheel, but really prefer a proper ring. But the other controls should be physical, not menu options. I don't want to look at my screen for anything other than initial setup, and review. It takes me away from shooting. I just want everything at my fingertips all the time, without having to look away.

 

Everything else can be in a menu, but please, put physical buttons on the camera. Make them fully programmable too. And add the M/A/S/P level under the shutter speed dial. Two programmable buttons on the left shoulder would do it, similar to the 1Ds3. One+wheel for ISO, the other+wheel for exposure compensation, and please add the appropriate readout to the viewfinder.

[peterv]

And so every user/photographer has his own preferences for buttons on the camera for quick acces to favourite controls.

One person will feel the need for dedicated ISO buttons, others will want exposure compensation or AF control buttons, etc.

Everyone has his own individual preferences for the ergonomics of a camera.

Once Leica starts to accommodate the complete wishlist of all the different potential users, the filosophy of handling the S2 as it is presented at Photokina will have vanished.

I personally would be very disapointed by this. I dislike clutter. As a Leica/Mac user, I like to 'see' a button or switch only when I need it. To me, this gives freedom to my eyes to concentrate on the important issues at hand at a particular moment during the process of taking a photograph.

 

There are 4 different soft buttons that are going to be programmable. That's enough for me. The way Mr. Farkas described the handling of the S2 seems logical and natural to me. For me, no essential control is burried deep in the menu.

 

I agree with Carsten though, that settings should be visible through the viewfinder, if that's needed. (as an option available in the menu, of course...)

[carstenw]

I have to handle the camera to see how far the softbuttons are from where my hands would before making this call, but in general, with digital photography, I think that certain things should have a button (ISO, Exposure Compensation), just like AF needs a focus button, and the basic interface of a camera is shutter speed and aperture.

 

By putting those things in menus, you are not simplifying the camera. They are still there. You are just hiding them. Not necessarily a good thing. I also don't like buttonitis, and applaud Leica for their general approach, but the M8 and especially the DMR were such a joy to use, compared to most cameras on the market, and I don't see the need for even more (apparent) simplicity, to be honest. I am sure that the S2 will be wonderful even without those buttons, but then I also already own a Contax 645, so if they make the interface to hard to reach for me, I just stick with what I have, quite simply.

[marknorton]

Do we know what information is presented in the viewfinder?

[carstenw]

http://www.imaging-resource.com/NPICS1/LEICA_S2_5_L.JPG

 

No ISO that I can see. I guess we don't yet know if Exposure Compensation is shown, because there was likely none set. I would expect at least a little +/-, but Leica is kinda minimal, so maybe nothing more. Why not just give us the option to have everything we want in there?

 

Of course, any of this could change yadda yadda...

[wlaidlaw]

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http://www.imaging-resource.com/NPICS1/LEICA_S2_5_L.JPG

 

No ISO that I can see. I guess we don't yet know if Exposure Compensation is shown, because there was likely none set. I would expect at least a little +/-, but Leica is kinda minimal, so maybe nothing more. Why not just give us the option to have everything we want in there?

 

Of course, any of this could change yadda yadda...

 

If they made the VF bottom strip a full functional OLED strip, then it could relatively easily be set up, so that the user could select what he/she wants to see in the VF up to say 5 variables.

 

This would then be rather like you can on the MFD's (Multi Functional Displays) that racing yachts have. If you have say 4 or 5 of these on the mast, then you can select each MFD to display any one of about 12 to 15 parameters (e.g water speed, speed over the ground, true wind speed, resultant wind speed, course, true wind direction, apparent wind direction, back-stay loading, rudder deflection, keel tilt angle, etc, etc) from the master LCD screens at each wheel.

 

Wilson

[boilerdoc]

It's a beauty in simplicity...would you expect anything else? The menu buttons look a lot like the Phase One set up Carsten. According to Christian Erhardt, when the battery extension is put on, the buttons "change to accomodate using the camera vertically". Interesting. And the reason for there being no aperture ring (other than cost) is to better ensure weather sealing (Stefan Daniel). There were a lot of guys (didn't see any women around) drooling to get a look at it so answers were a little garbled!

The R10 will follow directly with retro use of old R lenses plus a new set of AF lenses. No definite answer re VR capabilities - but hopefully. And it will be full frame (24X36).

And probably the best news (drum roll please) no video or live view. Hallelujah!

Steve

PS: Farkas is a great guy and very knowledgeable about the Leica hardware.....

[Alberti]

A feature I am thinking about is that there could be an extra eye on the body: an SBC cell that puts some data in EXIF for postprocessing,

1) like the ambient light and

2) ambient colour temperature.

The latter means probably that some internal soft dome is needed. It might even help in the AWB.

In fact a little bit more like the M8 then. For the 'just in case' if we use lenses from other (and older) product ranges (the Visoflex mounts come to mind).

Is anybody interested in such an addition; the second featute might be helpful even in a future M9.

alberti

[stevelap]

And so every user/photographer has his own preferences for buttons on the camera for quick acces to favourite controls.

One person will feel the need for dedicated ISO buttons, others will want exposure compensation or AF control buttons, etc.

Everyone has his own individual preferences for the ergonomics of a camera.

Once Leica starts to accommodate the complete wishlist of all the different potential users, the filosophy of handling the S2 as it is presented at Photokina will have vanished.

I personally would be very disapointed by this. I dislike clutter. As a Leica/Mac user, I like to 'see' a button or switch only when I need it. To me, this gives freedom to my eyes to concentrate on the important issues at hand at a particular moment during the process of taking a photograph.

 

There are 4 different soft buttons that are going to be programmable. That's enough for me. The way Mr. Farkas described the handling of the S2 seems logical and natural to me. For me, no essential control is burried deep in the menu.

 

I agree with Carsten though, that settings should be visible through the viewfinder, if that's needed. (as an option available in the menu, of course...)

I agree Peter, keep it as is, without the plethora of buttons and switches that adorn many current DSLR's. Leica don't need to follow the heard in that respect, providing of course that their system works in an intuitive way with the necessary information available for display in the viewfinder.

[ptomsu]

Before the S2 is not at least on the market for 1 year and has proven its capabilities and reliability (please other than M8), then one can start thinking about the real benefits of this system.

 

Other is just garbage

[mooky]

Before the S2 is not at least on the market for 1 year and has proven its capabilities and reliability (please other than M8), then one can start thinking about the real benefits of this system.

 

Other is just garbage

 

My guess is that Leica has shown it in it's (mostly) functional form early to whet our appetites and to ensure that it will be absolutely functional and as glitch-free as possible. Obviously, that is the best way and also (probably) the result of the M8 and it's 'teething' problems. Plus the S2 is at a great advantage coming fresh off a clean sheet of paper. I'd be surprised if they changed much other than a few minimalist function labels to the final product.

[peterv]

1) like the ambient light and

2) ambient colour temperature.

alberti

 

Hi Alberti,

 

People have been using colour temparature and lightmeters for that... Besides, if you really want to use your camera for that, the M8 (manual white balance on a Whiball and reflected light metering on a gray card) will get you close. I guess the S2 will be able to do the same. If that's not accurate enough, buy a meter.

 

Cheers, Peter

[carstenw]

It's a beauty in simplicity...would you expect anything else? The menu buttons look a lot like the Phase One set up Carsten. According to Christian Erhardt, when the battery extension is put on, the buttons "change to accomodate using the camera vertically". Interesting. And the reason for there being no aperture ring (other than cost) is to better ensure weather sealing (Stefan Daniel). There were a lot of guys (didn't see any women around) drooling to get a look at it so answers were a little garbled!

The R10 will follow directly with retro use of old R lenses plus a new set of AF lenses. No definite answer re VR capabilities - but hopefully. And it will be full frame (24X36).

And probably the best news (drum roll please) no video or live view. Hallelujah!

Steve

PS: Farkas is a great guy and very knowledgeable about the Leica hardware.....

 

The Phase One is a back. It doesn't need shutter speed or aperture, etc. I think it is a mistake to simplify a camera too much. How far do you want to go? One button, with a menu with everything? Is four buttons for everything enough? Sure, but a dedicated ISO button, for example, might make for a better workflow.

 

"Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler.", Albert Einstein.

 

Btw, Live View is great for accurate focusing in the studio, and for macro.

[berndr]

Hello,

 

for my way using a camera it's more important to change the ligthmetering mode on the fly then changing the exposure modes.

 

How can I change the lightmetering mode of the S2? I haven't read anything about it yet.

 

Kind regards,

Bernd.

[carstenw]

Everything which is not a button is operated through the menus. There are only buttons for removing the lens, depth of field preview, shutter mode, and taking a photo. Then there is a wheel for shutter speeds. The rest is through the four buttons around the menu. Three of them can be programmed as you wish. One could be the light metering mode, if you choose. You will likely need to look at the rear screen as you change it.

[guywalder]

A feature I am thinking about is that there could be an extra eye on the body: an SBC cell that puts some data in EXIF for postprocessing,

1) like the ambient light and

2) ambient colour temperature.

The latter means probably that some internal soft dome is needed. It might even help in the AWB.

alberti

 

Nikon dropped this idea, not least because it often doesnt help. the camera is often in a different ambient to the subject (think studio lights, or telephoto lens, or just standing in the shade with subject in the sun).

[guywalder]

It's a beauty in simplicity...would you expect anything else?

 

well Leica have a tightrope to walk, they have always made a big play about simple attractive industrial design, but digital and AF introduce more variables....

 

Personally I think a dedicated ISO control (and display) is just as essential as for aperture and shutter speed, and the M8 is weaker for its lack. Also I always use a dedicated AF on button, which is only possible if its ergonomically designed. I havnt held an S2, but the distance to the top right button looks far too far for my thumb.

 

I would be a bit surprised if, at the potential price point of the S2, potential customers are more bothered by the look of the camera than its usefulness.

It wouldnt be the first time I've been wrong though.....

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[mjh]

Nikon dropped this idea, not least because it often doesnt help. the camera is often in a different ambient to the subject (think studio lights, or telephoto lens, or just standing in the shade with subject in the sun).

Yes, Nikon’s D2 models from 2005 and 2006 had an ambient light sensor. Nikon was very excited about this feature at the time; they used it even to detect fluorescent lighting by its characteristic flicker. But as you said, it didn’t actually work out that well. Measuring ambient light at the camera position cannot replace a measurement at the subject position with a light meter; moreover, it can be quite misleading.

[khun_k]

It's a beauty in simplicity...would you expect anything else?

 

well Leica have a tightrope to walk, they have always made a big play about simple attractive industrial design, but digital and AF introduce more variables....

 

Personally I think a dedicated ISO control (and display) is just as essential as for aperture and shutter speed, and the M8 is weaker for its lack. Also I always use a dedicated AF on button, which is only possible if its ergonomically designed. I havnt held an S2, but the distance to the top right button looks far too far for my thumb.

 

I would be a bit surprised if, at the potential price point of the S2, potential customers are more bothered by the look of the camera than its usefulness.

It wouldnt be the first time I've been wrong though.....

But I think in all fairness, M8 was not designed to replace DSLR, it was the digital version of M, for M users. M8 for me is perfectly fine, except I do hope it is a little thinner as the traditional M. The S2 is more targeted to DSLR (of the budget non issue) and the medium format digital, except it somewhat lacks the detachable sensor unit flexibility. I do agree with what Leica is trying to do with S2 and I think it will be the most competitive product they put into production for years, or since the M6.