tashley Posted October 31, 2008 Author Share #21 Posted October 31, 2008 Advertisement (gone after registration) Tim, Reading your original post and viewing your Lyonesse portfolio I had the following thoughts: Your choice of an LF kit was sound and would be the best option for your subject matter and print requirements. Try an Ebony 45SU which is the fastest kid on the block to make the set up more enjoyable. Find a solution that provides adequate scans and prints, or go balls out and buy a 4x5 Imacon to make light work of the whole process. see Marc Williams posts. The field kit is comparatively light and the cost of getting a digi solution to the same quality level is high. Furthermore, you'd be up and running a week Tuesday with terrific images. Cost of materials (other than drum scanning) is incidental compared to the depreciation on digital gear. Guy should be able to expand on this. 6x7, 6x9, 6x12 film backs, plus movements, give tremendous flexibility to a low volume shooter. Even a Mamiya 7 would give you the quality your seeking. Given that you want to move on to an MF digital solution I question the S2 as your answer. Let me say I think it will be a fantastic indoor and outdoor studio camera. The design is not finished and even the chip is not set in concrete. There's no promise on it's availability, it's not designed as a rugged field camera and it will be very expensive I predict. Further, it will have it's teething problems and firmware redesigns for 18 months after release and more to the point, you'll be robbing yourself of your basic gear to fund it. If your S2 does require sending to Solms for ..... where will that leave you? In the pooh ? My impression is that you are not a lemming, nor have money to burn. Rolo Hi Rolo and thanks for the thoughts,. I already have a 4x5 field camera and want to move on from ti for the following reasons: * It's a PITA to use. What could be a pleasurable setup and old fashioned, slow-paced experience is in fact a nightmare of flapping cloths and hard to accurately control and preview movements and large, heavy bags to lug and takes for ever to assemble and setup. Had I more experience this would be ameliorated but not removed. * It's almost impossible these days to get really nice processing and scanning done by a third party at anything like a reasonable price. I also live nowhere near a lab. And even buying an Imacon would mean i had to get the film processed out of house. An Imacon costs a sizeable chunk of the cost of a digital MF system. * I like to know I've got the shot and due to the above, I don't know that til days later. While shooting the Lyonesse series I sometimes travelled hundreds of miles for a shoot. I took the 4 x 5 and the 1DSIII and in the end always used the 1DSIII shot because I always got the framing, DOF, focus and exposure exactly as I wanted it, via chimping. * I understand that as of about now, the best 39mp (or higher) backs give image quality that equals well scanned 4 x 5 In other words the only reasons to stick with a 4x5 are its more advanced movements and its lower capex. But with digital I get certainty and a whole load of other benefits. And by selling one of my M8s, my MP, my 75 Cron, my 1DSIII and glass, I can afford it! I'll end up with an M8.2 with lots of glass, and Pentax k20d with some good glass, and a P45+ setup with almost no glass. I think (hope!) it'll be worth it! Best Tim Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted October 31, 2008 Posted October 31, 2008 Hi tashley, Take a look here Wait for S2 or snap up a deal.... I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
sean_reid Posted October 31, 2008 Share #22 Posted October 31, 2008 Hi Sean, I also think as Rolo says that there will be months of 'getting it right' time while bugs and issues get ironed out. Tim Hi Tim, I don't think that will be the case - at least not to the extent some are concerned about. The programming is all being done in-house now and I suspect the S2 will be much less buggy at launch than the M8 turned out to be. That's just my educated guess. Cheers, Sean Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevelap Posted October 31, 2008 Share #23 Posted October 31, 2008 I'm finding the discussions concerning MF kit to be interesting and informative, but with the proposed S2 in mind I think it's worth remembering what Leica's stated intentions are for the camera. It's intended to sit somewhere between current high-end professional DSLR's and MF kit, inheriting some of the portability and ease of use of the former whilst providing much of the IQ of the latter. From what we have seen and read though, I believe that it will be closer in concept to a large DSLR, certainly in terms of size, form factor and handling, than it will be to any existing MF system. In other words experimenting with current MF gear will be interesting and worthwhile in itself, but it won't necessarily represent what the S2 will be, anymore than my chosen route of experimenting with a 1DsIII will. I want to use a large DSLR + lens combo to replicate as far as possible the size, weight and handling of the S2, and the Canon has the advantage of being high-resolution in terms of mpx, but I'm not fooling myself that it will provide full MF IQ. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulmoore Posted October 31, 2008 Share #24 Posted October 31, 2008 I'm finding the discussions concerning MF kit to be interesting and informative, but with the proposed S2 in mind I think it's worth remembering what Leica's stated intentions are for the camera. It's intended to sit somewhere between current high-end professional DSLR's and MF kit, inheriting some of the portability and ease of use of the former whilst providing much of the IQ of the latter. From what we have seen and read though, I believe that it will be closer in concept to a large DSLR, certainly in terms of size, form factor and handling, than it will be to any existing MF system. In other words experimenting with current MF gear will be interesting and worthwhile in itself, but it won't necessarily represent what the S2 will be, anymore than my chosen route of experimenting with a 1DsIII will. I want to use a large DSLR + lens combo to replicate as far as possible the size, weight and handling of the S2, and the Canon has the advantage of being high-resolution in terms of mpx, but I'm not fooling myself that it will provide full MF IQ. I think it the s2 is a mf camera.. it is clearly above any small dslr that is out there now.. and is positioned in the midst of the mf cameras Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guy_mancuso Posted October 31, 2008 Share #25 Posted October 31, 2008 Well The S2 given the new sensor from Kodak should prove to be very good and it should be equal easily to the P30 plus or Hassy H31 with 31mpx 6.8 microns. That part does not concern me so much. Some things do though and we have to wait and see. One that is the issue we have to wait. We are looking at next summer that is a long wait and certainly no guarantees on anything. I mean that on many levels , Leica, market , technology and so on. I personally would not wait but that is me and i am already there. I just finished shooting a interior/ exterior project and the results are stunning. You can check them out here, don't want to post MF stuff here that are not Leica shot Shooting Interiors with MF - The GetDPI Workshop Forums Anyway given the 39 mpx sensors are dropping like flies in the market with regards to price , You just simply can't go wrong. You can get a used or demo back for a very nice price and not much can go wrong with a back. Certainly don't wear out. Now if you do that you are certainly in MF land but with some of those limitations the S2 appears to have addressed on a certainly level. The S2 will be faster in FPS, ISO is a question but let's say 1600 after that with MF than you will be better with a Nikon per say. No MF is going over 1600 anytime soon and not with CCD sensors. The one big issue and not really a issue but a limit is the integrated sensor camera. You simply cannot use a tech camera and for some folks that will be a issue and some not. I see the S2 aimed directly at a certain group of shooters. Wedding, Fashion and Reportage types. That is the main trust, not saying a architecture shooter cannot use it but it will be a little tougher although I just did it without removing my back and shooting Interiors . Just adds some limits. Good or bad just depends on you the shooter. Other issue is this too . Price and let's be real honest here that 24mm and 30mm T/s comes in less than 5 k than I would be amazed. It won't . LOL . My Mamiya 28mm is 5600 on the streets today and Hassy 28mm is I believe 4k or so. Plus we have no real idea on the S2 . Sure some ball parks but this is next year and who knows what the market will be. Now i am not saying don't wait but I am also saying it is something to watch when it does comes. I'm certainly watching it and if it makes sense i will buy one. Just like anything else waiting is tough to do when you want to shoot today. I do have faith in Leica to pull this off and i really believe it will be good out of the gate . If nothing else leica learned a ton from the M8 and they do not want to be in those shoes again on release. Not a dig but reality and i still love the M8 warts and all. But they do not want any issues and certainly can't blame them or us for that matter. This is aimed at Pro's so Leica will make sure it works out of the gate. I feel pretty good about that and the Pro service should be what it is supposed to be. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rolo Posted October 31, 2008 Share #26 Posted October 31, 2008 Hi Rolo and thanks for the thoughts,. I already have a 4x5 field camera and want to move on from ti for the following reasons: * It's a PITA to use. Best Tim Tim, Been there, seen it, done it. Thats why I mentioned the Ebony 45SU with its assymetric movements = focus once and move it wherever you want = a joy to use. But there's still flapping cloths. Whether digital can match it, or not, is outside your remit, so no prob. For similar reasons, I chose to abandon my 4x5 Ebony (latterly being used with roll film holders only) and moved to a Hasselblad CFV back on various Hass V bodies. I don't have any 39 mpix experience, so although I know precisely where you're coming from, I don't know where your going to. Sean, I understand what you say about weather sealing and it may work a treat. Stefan Daniels made it clear at the Press briefings that the target market for the S2 was the fashion photographer and the S2 that went to PK had only been in studios. It's use as a very slow street camera may well happen in the hands of some Forum Users , and it may prove to be excellent for that purpose, but it is drifting away from the design spec. The 1Ds is good on the street as well. Weather sealing is necessary for dust and spots of rain and Leica are determined for this to be a reliable tool. WS is a sensible part of any high cost Pro camera. I'm sure that Leica will do a better job of the S2 than the M8, but I was pointing out to Tim that being an early adopter of a revolutionary system could leave him without a camera for a while. I don't wish it on him or anyone, but history illustrates the 'risk'. Rolo Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdai Posted October 31, 2008 Share #27 Posted October 31, 2008 Advertisement (gone after registration) The P45+is 34% larger than the S2, and the P65+ is 61% larger than the S2. For most the S can only be called a quasi MF. It' is clearly designed for those who want to move up from 35mm, or those who don't really need medium format. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guy_mancuso Posted October 31, 2008 Share #28 Posted October 31, 2008 Mine is the same size as the P45 sensor size wise and the few reasons to come down for me is more about speed. Better ISO , I am at ISO 800 limit, 1.5 seconds before next frame which is slow folks. LOL the S2 is 1.5 fps which is much faster. Bigger LCD than what I currently have . Some lenses that do not exist today that 30mm T/S lens is compelling for sure. And several other goodies the S2 has. I think I am a good example of most MF shooters on how they are viewing the S2. For us it is a speed issue more than anything and to do a lateral for existing MF shooters . I believe that would be the main over riding issue. For the 35mm folks it is much more compelling for sure. Just a much better image all around and with 12 stops of DR compared to the best 9 stops out there , this is huge. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
carstenw Posted October 31, 2008 Share #29 Posted October 31, 2008 The P45+is 34% larger than the S2, and the P65+ is 61% larger than the S2. For most the S can only be called a quasi MF. You conveniently left out the smallest MF sensor in your diagram. The S2's sensor is less than 10% smaller than the P30. The gap from the P30 to the P25/P45 is closer to 20%, so if the S2 is a quasi-MF, so is the P30. The difference to 35mm is about 50%. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rolo Posted October 31, 2008 Share #30 Posted October 31, 2008 You conveniently left out the smallest MF sensor in your diagram. ... and the best Fat Pixel sensor on the market ~ the Hasselblad CFV !! 36.7 x 36.7 mm Is there more to this than the size of the board ? Rolo Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdai Posted October 31, 2008 Share #31 Posted October 31, 2008 The P30 and CFV backs are last generation products, already discontinued or to be discontinued. So they're out of the consideration. I'm obviously speaking for myself only, but limiting the physical sensor size at 30x45mm is like suicide IMO, and the 6 micro pixel pitch is approaching current technology's limit, even smaller than the 40D's pixels (6.4 micron). Perhaps they'll change the mount again at some time and eventually come to real medium format. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rolo Posted October 31, 2008 Share #32 Posted October 31, 2008 The P30 and CFV backs are last generation products, already discontinued or to be discontinued. So they're out of the consideration. BTW - I have no experience whatsoever in these matters and am rarely right on anything. Well, if that's your decision, that's all there is to it. By the way, what's the size of your sensor ? Rolo Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdai Posted October 31, 2008 Share #33 Posted October 31, 2008 By the way, what's the size of your sensor ? I'm satisfied with 35mm, and will stay with it ... I'm interested in the S2 because Leica says its technology will be carried over to the R10 and maybe M9. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rolo Posted October 31, 2008 Share #34 Posted October 31, 2008 I'm satisfied with 35mm, and will stay with it ... I'm interested in the S2 because Leica says its technology will be carried over to the R10 and maybe M9. ... and indeed the M film cameras !! The new 21mm f1.4 and the 24mm f1.4 were products resulting from technology investments in the S2 programme. I'm not sure about the Noctilux, but probably that as well. The S2 payback could benefit every area of Leica's camera business before the S2 is also "discontinued". It's about optics and processors and body manufacture and ...... etc. Rolo Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan States Posted October 31, 2008 Share #35 Posted October 31, 2008 Digital capture will not match the image quality of 4x5 until they make a 4x5 sensor. The LF "quality" you see is not the resolution or lack of grain, but the very low level of magnification in print and the ability to control depth of field completely with more dramatic transition from sharp to blur, not to mention tilt and shift capability. Who here can see the difference in grain and resolution between a 31mp and 50mp back printed at 11x14? This is all about chasing a mythical perfect camera that will never exist. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisC Posted October 31, 2008 Share #36 Posted October 31, 2008 ... I went to see the amazing Nadav Kander show at Flowerseast in London yesterday... Tim - Hi.Nadav Kander is the only photographer I can think of whose personal work and commercial work both knock me out, but having seen your work before I was curios about your liking for Kander and your struggle with 5x4. I can't blame anyone for wanting a digital only workflow, it's the option I chose with the M8 after many years of [mostly] view-camera work alongside '120' film range-finders. I tried to write to you yesterday and deleted the post because I was struggling to frame my thoughts without the risk of them being misconstrued by you as disrespectful - which is contrary to my intention. But two questions kept nagging away; 'what is your intuitive way of photographing?' and ''how big a print size is enough?'. Many eminent 5x4 landscape photographers have been able to work with light folding cameras and half a dozen double dark-slides, and Joel Sternfeld made glorious pictures on a 1978 road trip [shooting 10x8] making only 2 exposures a day as he was too broke to make more. When I visited your Lyonesse portfolio, curiously the image that stood out most for me [the cliff shot with Union flag flying and boat collapsed [?] over the cliff] was the one which most reminded me of the special formal stillness that good view-camera working can attain [abundant in Nadav Kander's work]. But mostly I sense that you prefer to photograph on the move, and maybe your 5x4 is fine, but your shoes are too fast. I'm not suggesting you invest in deep-water divers shoes to make two 5x4 exposures a day [though it would sort out a lot of the scanning and post-processing workload]. All the options being suggested here require a substantial financial outlay for gear that will slow your feet and make your back ache. For a print size larger than the 36 inches you already go up to with your M8, I think you can attain that [for landscapes] with the M8 and stitching software; maybe tripod work with a 'nodal-rig' or maybe handheld and software stitched. This way you can work in a way which is not too counter intuitive for you, build larger files [any format ratio you want], keep your twitchy shoes, and have a minimal to no expenditure. Just a thought, and one I hope you don't find presumptuous. Maybe have a look at this current 'stitching' thread, you might have your curiosity aroused: http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/leica-m8-forum/67008-m8-panos-nodal-point-m-lenses.html Beware the Spending Bunnies. Hope you get the right solution for you. .................. Chris For those who don't know Nadav Kander : Nadav Kander Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdai Posted October 31, 2008 Share #37 Posted October 31, 2008 The S2 payback could benefit every area of Leica's camera business before the S2 is also "discontinued". Exactly, although I have made some negative comments on it (from my own perspective and maybe a different view angle from others'), I do believe/hope many others will find the camera fitting their needs/styles/bills. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
carstenw Posted October 31, 2008 Share #38 Posted October 31, 2008 The P30 and CFV backs are last generation products, already discontinued or to be discontinued. I didn't bring up the CFV-size sensors, someone else did. However, the P30-size sensor is not dead or to be discontinued (in any sense other than all products will eventually be discontinued); that is a made-up fact. The P30 back has been replaced with the P30+, which uses the de-facto chip for high ISO in MF. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tashley Posted October 31, 2008 Author Share #39 Posted October 31, 2008 Digital capture will not match the image quality of 4x5 until they make a 4x5 sensor. The LF "quality" you see is not the resolution or lack of grain, but the very low level of magnification in print and the ability to control depth of field completely with more dramatic transition from sharp to blur, not to mention tilt and shift capability. Who here can see the difference in grain and resolution between a 31mp and 50mp back printed at 11x14? This is all about chasing a mythical perfect camera that will never exist. Ahh, but I print large - at least 20 x 30 and usually 24 x 36 inches. The reason I bought the 4 x5 was so I could go to 40 x 40 ish. As I understand it, at that print size, the P45+ will hold up very nicely against 4 x 5. My experience of LF film folks is that when any claim is made against their baby, they simply resort to blaming the scanning but the fact is that perfect drum scans to very high res are astonishingly hard to find and very very expensive! t Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tashley Posted October 31, 2008 Author Share #40 Posted October 31, 2008 Tim - Hi.Nadav Kander is the only photographer I can think of whose personal work and commercial work both knock me out, but having seen your work before I was curios about your liking for Kander and your struggle with 5x4. I can't blame anyone for wanting a digital only workflow, it's the option I chose with the M8 after many years of [mostly] view-camera work alongside '120' film range-finders. I tried to write to you yesterday and deleted the post because I was struggling to frame my thoughts without the risk of them being misconstrued by you as disrespectful - which is contrary to my intention. But two questions kept nagging away; 'what is your intuitive way of photographing?' and ''how big a print size is enough?'. Many eminent 5x4 landscape photographers have been able to work with light folding cameras and half a dozen double dark-slides, and Joel Sternfeld made glorious pictures on a 1978 road trip [shooting 10x8] making only 2 exposures a day as he was too broke to make more. When I visited your Lyonesse portfolio, curiously the image that stood out most for me [the cliff shot with Union flag flying and boat collapsed [?] over the cliff] was the one which most reminded me of the special formal stillness that good view-camera working can attain [abundant in Nadav Kander's work]. But mostly I sense that you prefer to photograph on the move, and maybe your 5x4 is fine, but your shoes are too fast. I'm not suggesting you invest in deep-water divers shoes to make two 5x4 exposures a day [though it would sort out a lot of the scanning and post-processing workload]. All the options being suggested here require a substantial financial outlay for gear that will slow your feet and make your back ache. For a print size larger than the 36 inches you already go up to with your M8, I think you can attain that [for landscapes] with the M8 and stitching software; maybe tripod work with a 'nodal-rig' or maybe handheld and software stitched. This way you can work in a way which is not too counter intuitive for you, build larger files [any format ratio you want], keep your twitchy shoes, and have a minimal to no expenditure. Just a thought, and one I hope you don't find presumptuous. Maybe have a look at this current 'stitching' thread, you might have your curiosity aroused: http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/leica-m8-forum/67008-m8-panos-nodal-point-m-lenses.html Beware the Spending Bunnies. Hope you get the right solution for you. .................. Chris For those who don't know Nadav Kander : Nadav Kander Hi Chris, and thanks for the thoughts, which are most welcome! I tend to work in two ways: one is opportunistic and might even be called 'street' and for that the M8 is and will remain my faithful companion and I can indeed get a 36" print that's non too shabby. But I also work on fine art series, such as Lyonesse, where I plan each shot in advance and often travel a long way to it, then shoot with a tripod and lockup and so on. For this sort of work I have largely used the 1DSIII and tried the 4 x 5 and it's always the 1DS shot that gets used. I honestly think that it would take me years of practice to get sufficiently confident that I've always 'got the shot' with 4 x 5 and that means several years of carrying a digital camera too, as insurance. In which case, if a P45+ or similar really can make prints to 'Kander' sizes (about 45 inches on the long side) and with a dynamic range that compares favourably at that print size to MF film, then I figure that's the best solution. I carry one system, I get to be sure of having the shot, and I get the print quality I require. But that does assume that I'll get the print quality I require! Glad you enjoyed Kander as much as me. It was the first real wow moment I've had for quite a while! t Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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