tashley Posted October 29, 2008 Share #1 Posted October 29, 2008 Advertisement (gone after registration) Evening all, I am itching to get some serious resolution done. I went to see the amazing Nadav Kander show at Flowerseast in London yesterday. The images are artistically and technically astounding, 93.5 cm on the long side and shot on 4x5 film, sometimes in two or three conjoined frames. Wow. Get your nose right up to the print and like an enormous Greg Crewdson shot, you just cannot see any grain or anything but subtle and beautiful reality. Contemporary Art London New York Yangtze From East to West Nadav Kander Page 1 But... I bought a 4x5 camera earlier this year and haven't really got on with it. My contention is that with the high cost of developing and especially scanning LF film, unless one is attached to an institution that has all the gear, one is unlikely to get the sort of quality/price ratio that is acceptable. In the UK at least. So I'm renewed in my desire to get more (and larger) pixels. I love the idea of an S2, primarily because of what I imagine the glass will be like. But it's months away, the pound is sinking faster than the Republicans, and there are some great deals out there which have not yet been re-priced to take account of the shift against the Euro. The Hassy deal is for body, lens and 31mp back at £9,495 plus sales tax, or £12,450 with a 39 mp back. Phase one are offering factory refurbed P45 with 39mp, body and lens for £9,595 plus sales tax. The trouble is I have no idea how these bits of kit stack up. Is the P45 significantly less impressive than the P45+? Would it be better or worse than the 39mp Hassy? Or is the glass for these cameras, albeit I am certain excellent, not of the same quality as my M and R glass, which is about how good I expect the S2 glass to be? And what about Leaf? Comparative reviews of this sort of thing are hard to find! I would be selling an M8 (keeping M8.2) with a mint 75 cron, a Canon 1dsIII with a bag of glass and accessories and so on, to the value I expect of around £7,000 + so I won't have to up too much ante and I'll still have the 8.2 and a K20D for 'SLR' type days. The MF kit will be for landscape and urban landscape. I am unlikely to ever use flash and the beast will NEVER see the inside of a studio. My Zenfolio site, which I know some of you know, has particular examples of the sort of stuff I'd be using it for, especially the Lyonesse portfolio at Zenfolio | Tim Ashley | Lyonesse I currently print these to 20 x 30 or 24 x 36 but would like to go larger! Any advice or thoughts or experience people might have would be very gratefully received! Thanks Tim Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted October 29, 2008 Posted October 29, 2008 Hi tashley, Take a look here Wait for S2 or snap up a deal.... I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
lars_bergquist Posted October 29, 2008 Share #2 Posted October 29, 2008 Once many years ago I saw an exhibition of original Edward Weston prints. I asked myself, can I make prints that 'sing', tonally, in the same manner? I could, on the technical plane. Three of them now hang on the wall behind my computer. Two are from 6x6cm negs, one—the largest!—from 35mm. But these were all-chemical prints. After years of experience with scanners, I came to the conclusion that a hybrid workflow was no good. Now I am flying M8. If you want to do large format, you must have a large format darkroom. There are no shortcuts. The old man from the Age of the EL-Nikkor Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentleman Villain Posted October 29, 2008 Share #3 Posted October 29, 2008 Tashley...have you considered Alpa? ALPA of Switzerland - Manufacturer of fine cameras - The Photographic Platform I just checked out your zenfolio and my first thought is that you'd be happy as an 8x10. But then I read your post and realized you want a bit more freedom of movement and not have to worry about being chained to a lab. I'd say you're a PERFECT match for an Alpa. There's only one tilt-shift lens in the current S2 lineup. But alpa has an entire system built around multiple lenses with many different accessories (like bellows, ground glass etc) Plus, I saw a lot of strong contrast quality in your images...so you might enjoy the freedom to use Zeiss glass etc... Personally, I LOVE the idea of ALPA but it is probably too impractical for me because of work-flow requirements. That camera system is a real purists dream...Basically nothing in between your lens and the sensor...Plus you'd have the option of using film if ever wanting to in the future. Just a thoughts to consider...good luck with whatever you decide Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guy_mancuso Posted October 29, 2008 Share #4 Posted October 29, 2008 Tim first off the Hassy H3/31 and the Phase One P30 Plus are of the same exact sensor from Kodak. There both 31mpx 6.8 micron sensors. The Hassy H3/39 is the same as the Phase One P45 Plus or non plus sensor from Kodak. Hassy and Phase use the same sensors from Kodak so essential they are the same. Now Phase you can get a extra ISO stop because that is what Phase has done with building the Algorithm for them. Now the difference between the Plus and the Non plus is first a better LCD in the Plus also Phase has added some extra features in the engine side of it. I can't find the info between the non -plus and the Plus systems off hand. Phase did have that on there site at one time but can't find it. I have the P25 Plus which is a 22mpx 9 micron sensor and trust me it will eat any 35mm for breakfast and lunch. MF is a major step up, so that part you do not have to worry to much . Huge prints from any of these is possible . I can go to about 30 x40 than the P45 plus will beat me up. So yes the detail is better than mine but not earth shattering although it is there and honestly would not mind going 39 mpx myself and maybe because it is there but I an by no means unhappy quite the contrary . i am thrilled and you know i am a whore on the details but the M8 and DMR are some of the best in 35mm so yes it will be evident but if you can hold onto at least a M8 and a few lenses you may want this for other things. You will not miss your Canons even for a second. LOL What you need to figure out is what system you like to shoot the H3 or the Phase/Mamiya body. Now the hassy is a leaf shutter and limit is 1/800 of a second but a high flash sync , not necessarily what you need. The Phase/Mamiya is a focal plane shutter like your Canon sync speed 1/125 and top shutter 1/4000. This is what i have and i like to shoot more wide open sometimes so focal plane works for me. Tim I just shot these yesterday and today with my P25 plus. Even on the web you can see the detail Shooting Interiors with MF - The GetDPI Workshop Forums But you need to do your homework and figure this all out. Lot's of info out there and see what works best for you. Lens wise there all really good pretty much. On waiting for the S2 , well it's a damn long wait although i am watching it also. How can i not. LOL Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guy_mancuso Posted October 29, 2008 Share #5 Posted October 29, 2008 Tashley...have you considered Alpa? ALPA of Switzerland - Manufacturer of fine cameras - The Photographic Platform I just checked out your zenfolio and my first thought is that you'd be happy as an 8x10. But then I read your post and realized you want a bit more freedom of movement and not have to worry about being chained to a lab. I'd say you're a PERFECT match for an Alpa. There's only one tilt-shift lens in the current S2 lineup. But alpa has an entire system built around multiple lenses with many different accessories (like bellows, ground glass etc) Plus, I saw a lot of strong contrast quality in your images...so you might enjoy the freedom to use Zeiss glass etc... Personally, I LOVE the idea of ALPA but it is probably too impractical for me because of work-flow requirements. That camera system is a real purists dream...Basically nothing in between your lens and the sensor...Plus you'd have the option of using film if ever wanting to in the future. Just a thoughts to consider...good luck with whatever you decide I had the Alpa TC and it is a sweety but you do have to guess at focusing and there is no auto anything. It's a working camera which for me i do love . They are not cheap though and lenses start around 3600 and up and that is no joke. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
carstenw Posted October 29, 2008 Share #6 Posted October 29, 2008 Tim, there are other systems to consider as well. Sure, the body+back+lens kit will not cost you much, but add a couple of lenses and it adds up real fast. I just picked up a Contax 645 with 80/2, 120/4 Macro, 35/3.5, and a Hartblei 45mm, all for less than 5000 Euro, which I can almost fund just by selling my WATE! Oh, and I added an Arsat 30mm fisheye just for fun, for $300 I will probably end up with the Sinar eMotion 54 LV, which will set me back about 7000-8000 with adapter, so I can get a complete set for the same cost as a Hasselblad or Mamiya kit, and those Zeiss lenses are good! The 35/3.5 is the MF version of the 21 Distagon. I also happen to prefer the controls of this camera. The only thing I gave up is factory warranty; the stuff is almost like new. There are places which still repair and support it, and most of this stuff is so cheap that throwing in a backup body will set you back perhaps 500 Euro. Anyway, you might get more info at Guy's and Jack's forum, getdpi.com. They have a lively and friendly MF forum. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tashley Posted October 29, 2008 Author Share #7 Posted October 29, 2008 Advertisement (gone after registration) Tim, there are other systems to consider as well. Sure, the body+back+lens kit will not cost you much, but add a couple of lenses and it adds up real fast. I just picked up a Contax 645 with 80/2, 120/4 Macro, 35/3.5, and a Hartblei 45mm, all for less than 5000 Euro, which I can almost fund just by selling my WATE! Oh, and I added an Arsat 30mm fisheye just for fun, for $300 I will probably end up with the Sinar eMotion 54 LV, which will set me back about 7000-8000 with adapter, so I can get a complete set for the same cost as a Hasselblad or Mamiya kit, and those Zeiss lenses are good! The 35/3.5 is the MF version of the 21 Distagon. I also happen to prefer the controls of this camera. The only thing I gave up is factory warranty; the stuff is almost like new. There are places which still repair and support it, and most of this stuff is so cheap that throwing in a backup body will set you back perhaps 500 Euro. Anyway, you might get more info at Guy's and Jack's forum, getdpi.com. They have a lively and friendly MF forum. Hi Carsten! Thanks for that, though, being new to MF (or rather not new but very very long absent) I have little idea what you're talking about! Is the Sinar a digital back? Please excuse my ignorance! t Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tashley Posted October 29, 2008 Author Share #8 Posted October 29, 2008 Once many years ago I saw an exhibition of original Edward Weston prints. I asked myself, can I make prints that 'sing', tonally, in the same manner? I could, on the technical plane. Three of them now hang on the wall behind my computer. Two are from 6x6cm negs, one—the largest!—from 35mm. But these were all-chemical prints. After years of experience with scanners, I came to the conclusion that a hybrid workflow was no good. Now I am flying M8. If you want to do large format, you must have a large format darkroom. There are no shortcuts. The old man from the Age of the EL-Nikkor Thanks Lars... I think I've reached the same conclusion but those Imacon scanners do look tasty! And cheaper than a whole digi-kit given that I already have a 4 x 5 view camera and some film in the fridge... ;-) Tim Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tashley Posted October 29, 2008 Author Share #9 Posted October 29, 2008 Tashley...have you considered Alpa? ALPA of Switzerland - Manufacturer of fine cameras - The Photographic Platform I just checked out your zenfolio and my first thought is that you'd be happy as an 8x10. But then I read your post and realized you want a bit more freedom of movement and not have to worry about being chained to a lab. I'd say you're a PERFECT match for an Alpa. There's only one tilt-shift lens in the current S2 lineup. But alpa has an entire system built around multiple lenses with many different accessories (like bellows, ground glass etc) Plus, I saw a lot of strong contrast quality in your images...so you might enjoy the freedom to use Zeiss glass etc... Personally, I LOVE the idea of ALPA but it is probably too impractical for me because of work-flow requirements. That camera system is a real purists dream...Basically nothing in between your lens and the sensor...Plus you'd have the option of using film if ever wanting to in the future. Just a thoughts to consider...good luck with whatever you decide Thanks for the idea but I have to say that I really would like to be able to travel with whatever I buy so an 8 x 10 is OUT! But that gear does look sexy and well-made... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tashley Posted October 29, 2008 Author Share #10 Posted October 29, 2008 Tim first off the Hassy H3/31 and the Phase One P30 Plus are of the same exact sensor from Kodak. There both 31mpx 6.8 micron sensors. The Hassy H3/39 is the same as the Phase One P45 Plus or non plus sensor from Kodak. Hassy and Phase use the same sensors from Kodak so essential they are the same. Now Phase you can get a extra ISO stop because that is what Phase has done with building the Algorithm for them. Now the difference between the Plus and the Non plus is first a better LCD in the Plus also Phase has added some extra features in the engine side of it. I can't find the info between the non -plus and the Plus systems off hand. Phase did have that on there site at one time but can't find it. I have the P25 Plus which is a 22mpx 9 micron sensor and trust me it will eat any 35mm for breakfast and lunch. MF is a major step up, so that part you do not have to worry to much . Huge prints from any of these is possible . I can go to about 30 x40 than the P45 plus will beat me up. So yes the detail is better than mine but not earth shattering although it is there and honestly would not mind going 39 mpx myself and maybe because it is there but I an by no means unhappy quite the contrary . i am thrilled and you know i am a whore on the details but the M8 and DMR are some of the best in 35mm so yes it will be evident but if you can hold onto at least a M8 and a few lenses you may want this for other things. You will not miss your Canons even for a second. LOL What you need to figure out is what system you like to shoot the H3 or the Phase/Mamiya body. Now the hassy is a leaf shutter and limit is 1/800 of a second but a high flash sync , not necessarily what you need. The Phase/Mamiya is a focal plane shutter like your Canon sync speed 1/125 and top shutter 1/4000. This is what i have and i like to shoot more wide open sometimes so focal plane works for me. Tim I just shot these yesterday and today with my P25 plus. Even on the web you can see the detail Shooting Interiors with MF - The GetDPI Workshop Forums But you need to do your homework and figure this all out. Lot's of info out there and see what works best for you. Lens wise there all really good pretty much. On waiting for the S2 , well it's a damn long wait although i am watching it also. How can i not. LOL Hi Guy, So this is where you hang out! That info was invaluable and I thank you for it - and yes, those shots of yours really do scream DETAIL even at web size. So am I right in thinking that you'd think a refurb Phase P45 with new lens and body would be marginally better than the Hassy 31? I also think but would like to confirm that with an adaptor I could put the phase back on a 4x4 view camera? Best t Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guy_mancuso Posted October 30, 2008 Share #11 Posted October 30, 2008 Well the P45 or the H3/39 have that same sensor and it is almost full frame 645 format, need the dimensions here . The P30 plus and H31 is a crop factor camera 1.3 . also the P30/H31 have micro lenses so they will not work on a tech camera like a view camera , stitching camera because you will get color shift with movements . The S2 is the same just different size and a little different sensor but let that alone for now . Trying not to confuse you to much here. So if you have any plans for stitching with a stitch camera or view camera than you do not want the 31mpx sensor. You want the 39 mpx sensor with no micro lenses and it is more FF. Trying to be careful about the word full frame. Because nothing is until you get to a P65 which is a monster. Now the P45 will get you more detail than the P30 plus but none of them are slouches at all. The P30 is a little better at Moire and it does go to ISO 1600 and it is pretty good too. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdai Posted October 30, 2008 Share #12 Posted October 30, 2008 I have no idea how Phase One distributes their backs in UK, Tim. But as Guy has pointed out in many threads, you should give them a call and ask for a demo. You can always get some kind of deals from the distributors, Phase One internal sales in US occasionally has some incredible offers too. I'm always half-hearted in these things so after a while they don't call me or email me anymore. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guy_mancuso Posted October 30, 2008 Share #13 Posted October 30, 2008 I can't say it enough but try and get a demo and try these things out. Lot's of money and lot's to think about. All of the dealers in any of the systems should be able to help in some form on trying them. Whatever the price of the S2 finally comes in at , like throwing darts right now but hopefully folks can get there hands on them and see what there made of. I got lucky I had a Phase dealer on my workshop in San Juan and i had all three to play with for 6 days. I knew after 1 day but i knew that was what i wanted but still wanted to try them first. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
carstenw Posted October 30, 2008 Share #14 Posted October 30, 2008 Yes Tim, the back manufacturers are Sinar, Phase One, Hasselblad (Imacon), and Leaf. Each has their own strength. P1 and Hassie use Kodak sensors, and Sinar and Leaf use Dalsa sensors. Phase One has longer max. Exposure times and easy high ISO, Sinar has very clean shadows but a clunkier interface, Leaf has touch screen, and Hasselblad is closed and rely on software correction for their new lenses. As you can maybe tell, I am biased against Hasselblad. I don't like the way they were open and went closed, slamming the door on a lot of photographers, nor that they use software corrections. However the Hy6 is too expensive for me and the P1/Mamiya has no waist-level possibility, so it was Rolleiflex or Contax (cheaper, smaller) with a Phase One or Sinar back for me. I lean towards the Sinar for the cleaner shadows. I will use a tripod anyway. No sense in going for ultimate quality and then compromising with handheld... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanG Posted October 30, 2008 Share #15 Posted October 30, 2008 Tim, You might very well be the man for one of these... Seitz Phototechnik AG - Seitz 6x17 Unfortunately it is a bit pricey. For about 3-4 times the price of this camera, you could buy a condominium that I am selling in Hawaii. It has great panoramic views. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/66917-wait-for-s2-or-snap-up-a-deal/?do=findComment&comment=700399'>More sharing options...
tashley Posted October 31, 2008 Author Share #16 Posted October 31, 2008 Tim, You might very well be the man for one of these... Seitz Phototechnik AG - Seitz 6x17 Unfortunately it is a bit pricey. For about 3-4 times the price of this camera, you could buy a condominium that I am selling in Hawaii. It has great panoramic views. Hi Alan, Thanks for the suggestion but I'm afraid the images on the Seitz website are less than saliva inducing! I'll take the condo - or one of these: Better Light Super 8K-HS Digital Scanning Back - 386-215A - DMMC12052 Best t Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sean_reid Posted October 31, 2008 Share #17 Posted October 31, 2008 Hi Tim, If you can wait a bit, I'd suggest at least trying the S2. For starters, the sealed body could be great for the rainy UK landscape. Also, that camera could work for you handheld (as much so as the 1Ds Mk III) or tripod mounted. Cheers, Sean Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rolo Posted October 31, 2008 Share #18 Posted October 31, 2008 But... I bought a 4x5 camera earlier this year and haven't really got on with it. My contention is that with the high cost of developing and especially scanning LF film, unless one is attached to an institution that has all the gear, one is unlikely to get the sort of quality/price ratio that is acceptable. In the UK at least. So I'm renewed in my desire to get more (and larger) pixels. I love the idea of an S2, primarily because of what I imagine the glass will be like. But it's months away, I would be selling an M8 (keeping M8.2) with a mint 75 cron, a Canon 1dsIII with a bag of glass and accessories and so on, to the value I expect of around £7,000 + so I won't have to up too much ante and I'll still have the 8.2 and a K20D for 'SLR' type days.especially the Lyonesse portfolio at I currently print these to 20 x 30 or 24 x 36 but would like to go larger! Any advice or thoughts or experience people might have would be very gratefully received! Thanks Tim Tim, Reading your original post and viewing your Lyonesse portfolio I had the following thoughts: Your choice of an LF kit was sound and would be the best option for your subject matter and print requirements. Try an Ebony 45SU which is the fastest kid on the block to make the set up more enjoyable. Find a solution that provides adequate scans and prints, or go balls out and buy a 4x5 Imacon to make light work of the whole process. see Marc Williams posts. The field kit is comparatively light and the cost of getting a digi solution to the same quality level is high. Furthermore, you'd be up and running a week Tuesday with terrific images. Cost of materials (other than drum scanning) is incidental compared to the depreciation on digital gear. Guy should be able to expand on this. 6x7, 6x9, 6x12 film backs, plus movements, give tremendous flexibility to a low volume shooter. Even a Mamiya 7 would give you the quality your seeking. Given that you want to move on to an MF digital solution I question the S2 as your answer. Let me say I think it will be a fantastic indoor and outdoor studio camera. The design is not finished and even the chip is not set in concrete. There's no promise on it's availability, it's not designed as a rugged field camera and it will be very expensive I predict. Further, it will have it's teething problems and firmware redesigns for 18 months after release and more to the point, you'll be robbing yourself of your basic gear to fund it. If your S2 does require sending to Solms for ..... where will that leave you? In the pooh ? My impression is that you are not a lemming, nor have money to burn. Rolo Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sean_reid Posted October 31, 2008 Share #19 Posted October 31, 2008 (The S2 is) not designed as a rugged field camera and it will be very expensive I predict. Rolo Hi Rolo, The S2 will be expensive but it is, indeed, designed for field use as well (body seems very strong, lenses and body are sealed, etc.). Great suggestions but I wanted to respond to that specific point. Cheers, Sean Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tashley Posted October 31, 2008 Author Share #20 Posted October 31, 2008 Hi Tim, If you can wait a bit, I'd suggest at least trying the S2. For starters, the sealed body could be great for the rainy UK landscape. Also, that camera could work for you handheld (as much so as the 1Ds Mk III) or tripod mounted. Cheers, Sean Hi Sean, Thanks for the 8.2 and S2 articles, both of which are extremely useful. The more I think about the S2 however, the less I believe it'll fit in to my work, on the 'horses for courses' principle. I tend to use my K20d as an SLR but my 1DSIII as a MF setup, only taking it (and its weight and bulk) when I intend to shoot on a tripod and take all the ancillary gear with me. At about the same size and weight the S2 would get used similarly - in which case I do need to think of it as a P45+ or a Hassy, in terms of when and how it would get used. But a digital back offers larger photosites and more system flexibility though the advantages of assumed better high ISO performance and weather sealing are not to be discounted. I also think as Rolo says that there will be months of 'getting it right' time while bugs and issues get ironed out. I'll keep my M8.2 of course: for the sorts of work for which it is best suited it remians peerless! All the best Tim Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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