Digilux 3 and V-lux1 imaging firmware - Venus Engine 3?

[graeme_clarke]

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The Panasonic brochures for their equivalent cameras say they use the Venus Engine 3 for imaging. I've looked for the same information in the Leica brochures but they don't say whether or not they use they same system (or at least I cannot find any reference to it).

 

To settle an argument with a colleague who says Leica use Venus 2, can anyone answer the question " Do the Digilux 3 and the V-lux 1 use the Venus Engine 3"?

 

Thanks in advance,

 

Graeme

[MJLogan]

According to Leica Fotografie International magazine, the D3 uses the Venus III, but "the conflicting factors of sharpness, noise suppression, colour balance and gradation have been balanced a little differently--more resembling an analogue look--than in the case of ... the Lumix DMC-L1."

 

So yes, it's the same hardware, but it's been given different instructions. It's also worth noting that the promotional materials for the L1 spoke of the Venus III being specifically developed to get the most out of the L1's lens, so it's probably not fair to compare noise suppression in small-sensor Venus III cameras with noise-suppression in the L1/D3.

[MJLogan]

According to the same source, V-Lux 1 uses Venus III as well, also with custom Leica instructions.

[tommycrown]

Most Pana and Leica users concern for the noise on its same size sensor from its previous model FZ30, but some raised issues on Dpreivew forums that Leica has once stated to add more "Leica like" quality to V-Lux 1 compared to its cousin FZ50. Does this mean that V-Lux 1 was "tweaked" to reduce noise and creat better quality than Pana FZ50? 300USD is a big difference for Amateur photographers. Of course, Leica users will always be Leica users like me!

[dugby]

The term Venus II or Venus III are just "Marketing Phrases" to make the consumer feel that they are buying something new .

 

In reality in the life of the Venus technology delivered in the consumer product, there are probably 8 or 9 versions delivered at various times in the manufacturing life cycle of the product.

 

For example in the life of manufacturing the 40,000 Digilux2, even though they may have been perceived to be manufactered in one batch, it is very likely that the very last D2 had an improved Venus implementation than the very first D2. All the manufacturer has to do is implement an EC or firmware change to make a difference. But the marketing description

will still be called "Venus II"...or whatever.

 

So Leica may deploy Venus II.9 in a D3 and call it Venus II, and

Panasonic may deploy Venus II.8 in a L1and call it Venus III

 

Now which one is better ...?????

[JoelH]

The term Venus II or Venus III are just "Marketing Phrases" to make the consumer feel that they are buying something new .

 

In reality in the life of the Venus technology delivered in the consumer product, there are probably 8 or 9 versions delivered at various times in the manufacturing life cycle of the product.

 

Do you have some reliable information that suggests the changes are only firmware modifications? My strong impression from the Panasonic website information is that the "Venus III Engine" is a later-generation hardware design, very probably on a later-generation CMOS process, and delivers significantly more DSP processing power while consuming somewhat lower electrical power. This is perfectly expected as time and product generations move on, and is in keeping with the continuous improvements in digital CMOS technology.

 

Now, the choices that Panasonic has made regarding what to DO with the increased processing power, vs. any different choices that Leica may or may not have requested, are another matter which is the subject of intense discussion / criticism (of Panasonic) and discussion / speculation (of Leica). It is reasonable to believe that the DSP could have (many would say should have) been programmed by Panasonic to use the extra power in a different way. And it is not necessarily the case that all "Venus III" equipped cameras, now or in the future, will implement the image-processing trade-offs in the same way.

 

So Leica may deploy Venus II.9 in a D3 and call it Venus II, and

Panasonic may deploy Venus II.8 in a L1and call it Venus III

 

Again, my impression is that the II to III evolution is hardware-based, not software-based. Though they are not trying overtly to deny the Panasonic connection, I think that Leica, having chosen to market their version in the first place, has (reasonably) chosen to market each camera as a Leica AG product and not a Panasonic product. I doubt that their ad copy or brochures will use the "Venus" trademark at all.

 

JoelH

[JoelH]

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Most Pana and Leica users concern for the noise on its same size sensor from its previous model FZ30, but some raised issues on Dpreivew forums that Leica has once stated to add more "Leica like" quality to V-Lux 1 compared to its cousin FZ50. Does this mean that V-Lux 1 was "tweaked" to reduce noise and creat better quality than Pana FZ50?

 

If the "more Leica-like" trade-offs have anything to do with noise at all, it is actually quite possible that the default noise level will be higher in the Leica version, to minimize the much-criticized "smearing" of fine low-contrast-area detail in the FZ50. Based on numerous image samples, the previous FZ30 model did not suffer from this issue although it had visibly higher noise at high ISO settings.

 

If the imagers had been the same, which they aren't, then the faster Venus III DSP engine should allow for some minor improvements in the noise-vs-detail trade-off. As it is, some of the Venus III capability is used up in simply handling the higher pixel count, but there should still be something left for image processing improvements. Poor Panasonic has been taking a lot of heat regarding their possibly overzealous attempts to address the noise levels of their previous camera models. It does seem to me that they should have provided a set of menu options to enable a more FZ-30 like image. Likewise in their other small-sensor Venus III digicams.

 

I am encouraged by Leica's apparent willingness to request image processing customization and not just body shell customization. If this trend continues, it could eventually lead to cameras which are still Panasonic-built, but which are truly different in important ways - different lenses, different human interface engineering, possibly even different image-channel electronics, all of which would justify the cost difference in more compelling ways. Hopefully the Leica and Panasonic marketing folks will learn to strategize together and produce a synergistic product line - Leica providing real-world advantages and a different handling philosophy for a price, and Panasonic providing excellent features-for-the-price while retaining the high image quality they have gained from the Leica optical designs.

 

JoelH

[albertwang]

Wow, so that red dot really does mean something in the long run...

[MJLogan]

What Venus III does with a 7.5 MP 4/3 Live-MOS sensor vs. a 10.3 MP 1/1.8 CCD sensor should be interesting. The engine will have fewer, and substantially bigger, pixels to process. If Panasonic's claims about Live-MOS and noise are at all credible, the inherent S/N ratio should be much better on D3 information than V1 information.