sdai Posted October 27, 2008 Share #21 Posted October 27, 2008 Advertisement (gone after registration) The world wide medium format digital back market with all makes combined is less than 6000 units per year according to Mr. Reichmann on his site. A couple of years ago Pentax was struggling with their decision whether to bring the 645 digital to the market amid the turmoil of a hostile takeover by Hoya, they had a number (if I remember correctly) the full capacity of this market is far less than 100 thousand units and decided not to pursue it. However, in a recent interview with their product planning director Toshiyuki Kitazawa, it appears that they've given up the plan on a 35mm FF model and revived the 645 digital again. According to Mr. Kitazawa, the 645 digital will be targeting the landscape photographers instead of studio users. I can't speak for the others but if I'm seriously looking at any medium format digital systems, I'll not spend a dime until everybody shows hand. Any system with less than 3 years lifetime will be out of my consideration. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted October 27, 2008 Posted October 27, 2008 Hi sdai, Take a look here competition is already starting to show up..... I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
khun_k Posted October 27, 2008 Share #22 Posted October 27, 2008 The world wide medium format digital back market with all makes combined is less than 6000 units per year according to Mr. Reichmann on his site. A couple of years ago Pentax was struggling with their decision whether to bring the 645 digital to the market amid the turmoil of a hostile takeover by Hoya, they had a number (if I remember correctly) the full capacity of this market is far less than 100 thousand units and decided not to pursue it. However, in a recent interview with their product planning director Toshiyuki Kitazawa, it appears that they've given up the plan on a 35mm FF model and revived the 645 digital again. According to Mr. Kitazawa, the 645 digital will be targeting the landscape photographers instead of studio users. I can't speak for the others but if I'm seriously looking at any medium format digital systems, I'll not spend a dime until everybody shows hand. Any system with less than 3 years lifetime will be out of my consideration. The S2 and the digital back is very different, for one thing, the digital back can run thru many lifetimes of a camera body/shutter so they will most likely outlive the camera body, if one does not change the back. Or at least swipe the back onto other camera platform, as the case of Sinar backs. With S2 and the case as Canon/Nikon, you pretty much stay with the one chip/one camera mode, which is not all that bad either. Today's 39/33 million pixles back will have their stay for pretty much long time and will be cheaper everyday, the question is always if you get paid for your work/camera, then do it or you can always wait, there is always something better some time later. Mamiya recently introduce a camera fitted with Leaf back, which may be a sign that they may not put much more effort into making newer/higher power ZD (my speculation anyway), I think the back business is not attractive enough for Japanese. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdai Posted October 27, 2008 Share #23 Posted October 27, 2008 The S2 and the digital back is very different, for one thing, the digital back can run thru many lifetimes of a camera body/shutter so they will most likely outlive the camera body, if one does not change the back. That doesn't change the fact that it is still a $20k camera, and the fact it doesn't have a interchangeable back is its biggest drawback of the system. The expenses incurred from upgrading will be much higher than a modular system, and the S system limits its physical sensor size to 30x45 now the sensor already has a pixel pitch of 6 microns - which is comparable to the Nikon D300, Sony A900, how many more pixels can they pack into the sensor in an upgraded model? ... the question is always if you get paid for your work/camera, then do it or you can always wait, there is always something better some time later. That's no different from saying if you have the money then go for it, based on that assumption, Leica could easily sell more cameras than they can build and wouldn't live on the brink ... why? the world's millionaire club already has a membership of over 10 million. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanG Posted October 27, 2008 Share #24 Posted October 27, 2008 On the question of how big a market is there for the S2... I will say simply from my observation of the Leica booth at the Photoplus Expo that it is not real big. A few people standing around the S2 and looking at it, but certainly no crowd. And I stopped by a few times throughout the day. Whereas Canon had many more of each model camera on display and a lot of people to demo them, yet the crowd was three deep there and it took me a while to get my hands on a 5DII. It was slow going at all of the digital back/MF companies, even Mamiya, with their signs touting what you get for $14,995. Such a deal... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guy_mancuso Posted October 27, 2008 Share #25 Posted October 27, 2008 15k is a pretty nice deal right now for the Mamiya with the Leaf back. The 31mpx ones are about 3k more right now. Glad i am already on board with mine. The quality of file is worth it, no question Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimF Posted October 27, 2008 Share #26 Posted October 27, 2008 15k is a pretty nice deal right now for the Mamiya with the Leaf back. The 31mpx ones are about 3k more right now. Glad i am already on board with mine. The quality of file is worth it, no question It is a nice price, that's for sure. Hasselblad's slashing certainly seems to have enlivened things; for whatever reason it was done. If the end result is more sales for medium format digital then it's all to the good. As an aside, does anyone here have an idea of Phase One prices in the UK. It's not a problem finding out those for 'blad, Leaf and Sinar, but every dealer site I go to says call for prices on Phase One. Frankly I'd rather have a rough idea of the potential layout before making enquiries (and please, no cracks about if you have to ask, etc) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guy_mancuso Posted October 27, 2008 Share #27 Posted October 27, 2008 Advertisement (gone after registration) The P30 plus with Phase body and lens I just got a e-mail for at 19995.00 but this is US. Of course posted prices mean nothing. Call a dealer and get a exact price. Check the Phase One site for a dealer in your local. If in the US call Capture Integration talk to Lance. Never a crack about if you have to ask. This is a big outlay and really need to do your homework and make sure you get the right system for you. First decision decide focal plane shutter or leaf shutter. That will immediately start the separation in choices. I went Focal plane like the Canon and Nikons but if you do a lot of outdoor flash than a leaf shutter maybe more important. Focal plane shutters on the Mamiya/phase bodies are 1/4000 and sync at 1/125. hassy ,Sinar are leaf shutters top limit is 1/1000 and i think 1/500 for flash sync. Hassy top end is 1/800. Do double check me on those numbers i could be off but only very slightly on the leaf shutter ones. There is always a Contax 645 but that is no longer in production so you do have camera limits about any upgrading, that is also focal plane. These are the more modern setups . Hassy does have a older focal plane shutter camera. I will let someone explain that one better since i have limited knowledge of it Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andybarton Posted October 27, 2008 Share #28 Posted October 27, 2008 On the question of how big a market is there for the S2... I will say simply from my observation of the Leica booth at the Photoplus Expo that it is not real big. A few people standing around the S2 and looking at it, but certainly no crowd. And I stopped by a few times throughout the day. Whereas Canon had many more of each model camera on display and a lot of people to demo them, yet the crowd was three deep there and it took me a while to get my hands on a 5DII. .. That's partly because a Canon 5anything is a camera for the masses, and in no way to be compared with an S2. Only a few people will even know what an S2 is (it looks like a normal SLR, after all), while millions of people will have seen Canon ads all over the place in magazines, and on the back of sports machine-gunners at stadia all over the world. People will not be beating down Leica's door to buy one when they arrive in huge numbers. After all, they can't build them in huge numbers. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dfarkas Posted October 27, 2008 Share #29 Posted October 27, 2008 .....First decision decide focal plane shutter or leaf shutter. That will immediately start the separation in choices..... Guy, I think one of the biggest advantages the S system will have in the market is the ability to have leaf or focal plane shutter in one system at the flip of a switch. Fashion shooters will love it. Take a wide-open available light shot in full daylight (with no ND filters) or go for dramtic 80/20 battery pack lighting at f/8 or f/5.6 within the amount of time it takes to flip the selector switch and turn on the PocketWizard. David Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guy_mancuso Posted October 27, 2008 Share #30 Posted October 27, 2008 Absolutely David and one of the key reasons i am interested. You get both and no system does that today. Problem is the S2 is a waiting game but if you need something today than this part is real important. Phase /Mamiya do have leaf shutters coming in some lenses. Again another waiting game. Also the biggest difference will be when the time comes is can you deal with a integrated body or do you need a separate back. That will all depend on what type of shooter you are. Wedding and fashion shooters don't need a separate back. Landscape shooters and Architectural shooters will most likely want a separate back for tech camera's and such. The key today if your going to jump in today is figuring that out . The key when the S2 comes out is if it will work for you with your style or type of work. I could switch myself when the time comes because there are some tricks in stitching and such when I can get away with certain things. The key regardless of what you buy is figuring out how this all works within the type of work you do. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanG Posted October 27, 2008 Share #31 Posted October 27, 2008 Guy, I think one of the biggest advantages the S system will have in the market is the ability to have leaf or focal plane shutter in one system at the flip of a switch. Fashion shooters will love it. Take a wide-open available light shot in full daylight (with no ND filters) or go for dramtic 80/20 battery pack lighting at f/8 or f/5.6 within the amount of time it takes to flip the selector switch and turn on the PocketWizard. David Also, cameras with focal plane shutters will let you use other lenses on them. Specifically the Hartblei TS lenses will be appealing and should be adaptable. (A Pentacon to S2 adapter will need to be made.) I know that people will be buying this for the Leica lenses, but even an East German Zeiss 120 should be useful for portraits and is very cheap. As for my comments about the crowd at the Canon booth vs. the Leica booth.... I know that the 5DII and many other Canons are mass market cameras. That was the point. It will be pretty hard to assess the demand for the S2 until they go on sale, but judging simply by interest at this show, it is not that great. Sorry. I think as MF companies start advertising lower and lower prices, they'll get a lot more interest. This may not fit in with the business model of the S2, but I think other manufacturers are recognizing it. But when you get down to it, only a small percentage of photographers need MF digital or are even slightly interested in it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guy_mancuso Posted October 27, 2008 Share #32 Posted October 27, 2008 We are a small group for sure compared to the DSLR market by a landslide. This area is much more specialized and limited to folks that HAVE to spend at this level. This is a NEED area and not really a WANT area. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptomsu Posted October 27, 2008 Share #33 Posted October 27, 2008 I hope that Nikon will mix up this market with the MX System - and that the MX system does not only stay a rumor. Maybe Canon will also enter this market - who knows? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mooky Posted October 27, 2008 Share #34 Posted October 27, 2008 I hope that Nikon will mix up this market with the MX System - and that the MX system does not only stay a rumor. Maybe Canon will also enter this market - who knows? Isn't there a big Nikon announcement November 22nd? In the future one could easily assume that 35mm size sensors will be the norm and be cheaper. That would seem, or perhaps make it likely, that the pro markets/cameras may all venture into larger, even proprietary, 'MF'-sized sensors. Nikon definitely seems as though they are up to something beyond their usual scope of thought/product. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevelap Posted October 28, 2008 Share #35 Posted October 28, 2008 I hope that Nikon will mix up this market with the MX System - and that the MX system does not only stay a rumor. Maybe Canon will also enter this market - who knows? There are rumours (there always are:) ) that have been circulating for a while re Canon experimenting with a 'larger than 35 full-frame' dslr concept. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjh Posted October 28, 2008 Share #36 Posted October 28, 2008 As for my comments about the crowd at the Canon booth vs. the Leica booth.... I know that the 5DII and many other Canons are mass market cameras. That was the point. It will be pretty hard to assess the demand for the S2 until they go on sale, but judging simply by interest at this show, it is not that great. Sorry. Yeah, but so what? Leica couldn’t sell millions or even hundreds of thousands of units, even if the demand was there – they simply cannot build that many cameras unless they were outsourcing manufacturing to Asia. And even if they were trying to outsource production, they wouldn’t find the highly skilled manual labour resources necessary. So if Leica wants to enter a new market, it better be a small market. Nothing wrong with that, really. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanG Posted October 28, 2008 Share #37 Posted October 28, 2008 Yeah, but so what? Leica couldn’t sell millions or even hundreds of thousands of units, even if the demand was there – they simply cannot build that many cameras unless they were outsourcing manufacturing to Asia. And even if they were trying to outsource production, they wouldn’t find the highly skilled manual labour resources necessary. So if Leica wants to enter a new market, it better be a small market. Nothing wrong with that, really. My comment was simply a response to the speculation of how big the market for MF could be. And why there were not that many people posting that they handled the camera at the PPE show. Outside of the Leica forum, I don't think there is that much knowledge about it or interest. I hang out with lots of pro photographers and I haven't heard one of them mention the S2. Interest will have to be built over time if the camera is to succeed. I know that there is no potential for this to be a large market. The same is true with all MF digital cameras. I don't expect Leica to try to make the S2 appeal to the masses. But they are going to have to really scramble and also control prices just to get a slice of a tiny market. I have no idea how big a slice Leica needs for the S2 to be profitable. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mgcd Posted October 28, 2008 Share #38 Posted October 28, 2008 My comment was simply a response to the speculation of how big the market for MF could be. And why there were not that many people posting that they handled the camera at the PPE show. Outside of the Leica forum, I don't think there is that much knowledge about it or interest. I hang out with lots of pro photographers and I haven't heard one of them mention the S2. Interest will have to be built over time if the camera is to succeed. I know that there is no potential for this to be a large market. The same is true with all MF digital cameras. I don't expect Leica to try to make the S2 appeal to the masses. But they are going to have to really scramble and also control prices just to get a slice of a tiny market. I have no idea how big a slice Leica needs for the S2 to be profitable. My experience has been totally different from yours. I've had a great number of people mention the S2 to me (making a point of calling me to discuss it) since its announcement at Photokina and there appears to be at least a good deal of curiosity about it. Now whether this translates into a firm market development for Leica is not for me to say, since I don't have the required data at my disposal. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riccis Posted November 16, 2008 Share #39 Posted November 16, 2008 I hope that Nikon will mix up this market with the MX System - and that the MX system does not only stay a rumor. Maybe Canon will also enter this market - who knows? Peter: I learned from a highly reliable source that Nikon is indeed coming out with an S2 like camera (larger than FF, 40+ Mp, new mount, new sensor) and seven lenses in 2009. Things will definitely be very interesting... Cheers, Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
paga Posted November 16, 2008 Share #40 Posted November 16, 2008 The never ending race for what's left in our wallet Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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