Something is rotten in the S2 lens lineup

[carstenw]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

Having, like all of us, read the announcements and wondered if it might make sense for me to save up for this camera and a couple or three lenses, I started looking at the lens list for my favorite focal lengths. The following is from David Farkas' blog:

 

24/2.8, 30/3.5 TS, 30-90/3.5, 35/2.5, 70/2.5, 100/3.5, 120/2.5, 180/3.5, 350/3.5

 

3 things stick out here:

 

1) This is a really nice lens lineup, both fast and extensive, wide and long. The 24/2.8 is going to trounce Hasselblad's software-assisted 28mm, and probably everything else out there in MF wide-land. The TS lens is very wide, and will also have some fanatic fans. The 30-90 is a little at the wide end, which surprises me. I had expected something more like a 45-90, but this is probably to appeal to 35mm-FF 24-70 users. The macro lens is both fast and well-placed in the range, compared to most MF macro lenses, given the Leica S2's sensor size. The 350/3.5 will keep Doug Herr interested, since it echoes the 280/4 It does need a 1.4x converter though.

 

2) There is a huge gap between the 35mm and the 70mm. This means no walk-around lens for 35mm-FF fans. What is really needed here is a 50mm f/2.0 or f/2.5. This gap is so large and obvious that I wondered if Leica had done it on purpose, to leave room for a later announcement of a special lens. Well, now I have ruined that, sorry However, I like standard lenses better than 35mm lenses, so for me that is not a problem.

 

3) A 100mm f/3.5 or f/2.5 is not enough for a portrait lens, as reported by David Farkas (f/3.5) and PDN Gear Guide (f/2.5). If Leica really wants to make a splash here, they need to not only dispatch the Zeiss 150mm f/4 and the Zeiss 180mm f/4, but perhaps more pertinently, the Zeiss 110mm f/2! 100mm on the S2 matches the 110mm of the Zeiss rather well, but we need an f/2 lens here, and one with characteristics at least as good as the Zeiss. Now, I am confident that Leica can do this, but they do need plan it.

 

The existing lens mockups don't look particularly large at the front element, leading me not only to think that they are trying to keep the lenses affordable, ie. in the typical MF price range of 2000-4000 EUR, in spite of their very high optical quality, but also that there is some room for more extravagant designs. The large individual elements required to move from 35mm-FF to MF will surely take up some of the design effort, but I would be surprised if Leica doesn't have at least one or two more exiting designs up their sleeve.

 

My suggested improved lens lineup would be the following:

 

24/2.8, 30/3.5 TS, 30-90/3.5, 35/2.5, 50/2, 70/2.5, 100/2, 120/2.5, 180/3.5, 350/3.5

 

I would personally probably shoot for the 35/2.5, 70/2.5 and 100/2, with the macro being added later. If there is no 100/2, I would buy the macro lens instead, but this would be a compromise, as a macro lens is too sharp for nice portraits. Softar needed in that case!

 

Comments?

[Advertisement]

The Leica Q3 is available for pre-order at B&H Photo Video and Adorama

[Guest guy_mancuso]

If it was my call I would not make the 110mm 3.5 instead do a 130mm or 140mm F2 or 2.8 since it would be more a portrait type lens. If i got this system as it was i would go right for the 180mm as the portrait lens. Guess we all have different needs too. I'm doing real well with the 80 and 150 combo today on the Phase which would be equal to the 70 and 140mm on the S2 . So my vote would be that 140 instead of the 110. Which IMHO is a little close to the 70mm. I find that i use a bigger gap in MF than I did in 35mm. I used to have as many as 11 lenses with the DMR and I think 9 with the M8, I have 6 for MF. Even that maybe too much

[wildlightphoto]

The 350/3.5 will keep Doug Herr interested, since it echoes the 280/4 It does need a 1.4x converter though.

 

I'd certainly consider a 1.4x essential, and an extension tube. As you have also calculated, the 350 would give me the same angle of view as the 280 f/4 on a 24x36mm camera. For the way I work, this is about the widest angle I can use to get good wildlife photos, and if the 350's performance were to be comparable to the 280 I'd need to focus as close as the 280 does; this often means using an extension tube.

[adan]

"This means no walk-around lens for 35mm-FF fans"

 

This is a professional's studio camera - with some "35mm" ergonomics to make location shoots a bit more comfortable. Not sure a "walking-around" lens has any point, any more than it would on an RB-67. Who's gonna "walk around" with $25,000 hanging from one neckstrap?

 

It is interesting that the "normal" is longer than usual, but again this is tied to the targeted market - pro shooters doing studio and fashion stuff, where a longer lens IS normal to reduce distortion effects.

 

100mm = "80mm" on 24x36, "183mm" on 120 film. A very nice portrait focal length.

[Guest guy_mancuso]

Not sure a "walking-around" lens has any point, any more than it would on an RB-67. Who's gonna "walk around" with $25,000 hanging from one neckstrap?

 

 

You must have not seen me walking around. LOL

 

Not the most practical i can tell you that.

[Guest guy_mancuso]

I find the 150mm which would be the 140 S2 great for 3/4 length stuff but if i had the 200mm or 180 mm better for tight portraits. I feel a little close to the subject when doing a portrait with the 150mm. Actually they maybe better off with a 70, 140 and 210, 350 at least from my seat i would prefer that but i can make do with the 180mm

[Guest lll]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

The lenses you can see in the pictures published up to now are only mock ups. They all carry the same curved glass front element - and nothing else. The later lenses will look different. Don´t calculate from the pictures to the speed of the lenses.

 

Regards

Friedhelm

(who had the mock ups in his hand)

[krabat]

Friedhelm, at least the 70 mm lens was NO mock up, as others and also I could take pictures with it last week at the Photokina...

[paulmoore]

"This means no walk-around lens for 35mm-FF fans"

 

This is a professional's studio camera - with some "35mm" ergonomics to make location shoots a bit more comfortable. Not sure a "walking-around" lens has any point, any more than it would on an RB-67. Who's gonna "walk around" with $25,000 hanging from one neckstrap?

 

It is interesting that the "normal" is longer than usual, but again this is tied to the targeted market - pro shooters doing studio and fashion stuff, where a longer lens IS normal to reduce distortion effects.

 

100mm = "80mm" on 24x36, "183mm" on 120 film. A very nice portrait focal length.

 

I think that the majority of professionals which will be looking at this camera will want it both in the studio and out..and I would guess around 50/50.

35,000 thousand easy with some lenses right.. take that outside?? my truck is more than than and use I take it outside..it is insured as well as the cameras..some guys and gals have that on their person with jewelery.

but getting back to the point.. it has to be a walking around camera.. it is the nature of the beast..the whole point of the weathered sealed beast..we are just in sticker stock here with the camera.. but somehow we are use to seeeing the 70,000 range rover some guys take out in the cruel world.

my leica proformat wishlist lens kit since nothing is in stone..or glass at this point.

 

24- great.., 35mmf2, 50mm 100 and 200mm lux with close focus capability,

120 f3.5 macro , tiltsht adapter to be able to use on anything from 35 to 120macro.

the 350 and 1.4x, 2.2x

if it is a leica you got to have a summilux or two and they are so good you don't need to double up with smaller aperture models.

[lxlim]

Perhaps the zoom is the best selling item in other MF ranges and Leica is merely starting from that position. (edit: I meant from the point of not having a 50mm)

 

Personally, I would most probably go for the zoom for 90% of what I would use the S2 for, which is not indoor studio work.

 

Would the 30~90 be 20 ~ 60 in the 35mm equivalent?

[guywalder]

This is a professional's studio camera - with some "35mm" ergonomics to make location shoots a bit more comfortable. Not sure a "walking-around" lens has any point, any more than it would on an RB-67. Who's gonna "walk around" with $25,000 hanging from one neckstrap?

 

surely the whole point of Leica's move is to offer something different than the current studio camera options, and much more flexible than an RB67.

The pictures I seen so far make it look very comparable in size to a D700+2.8 zoom. That being the case it becomes genuinely possible to have middle format quality outside the studio, which sound pretty good to me, even if I cant pay for it...

[lars_bergquist]

The traditional definition of 'standard lens' was 'focal length close to or slightly longer than the image diagonal'. The diagonal of the S2 sensor is 54mm, so a true S2 standard lens should be something like 55 to 60mm. There is indeed a gap.

 

For the rest, like with any lineup od fixed focal lengths, there will be as many gaps as there are users ... because they all have different shooting habits. And zooms have taught some of us to indulge them.

 

The old man from the Age of Max Berek

[luigi bertolotti]

Hey, guys... ... I understand (and in a certain sense, share) your enthusiasm for S2... but give them a little time to complete the lenses' lineup ! Camera is far from being distributed... some fundamental focals are announced (and, I think, SOME of them ready for production...)... wait a little... Should it become a real success (and I will be a lot glad for them), no doubt they can even design a S-Noctilux 75 f 0,85... (btw, seem to remember that old Leitz did make a f0,85... maybe a X-Ray Summarex...)

 

BTW... the quoted 100 is a 3,5... can be it's a macro lens, for instance ?

[carstenw]

"This means no walk-around lens for 35mm-FF fans"

 

This is a professional's studio camera - with some "35mm" ergonomics to make location shoots a bit more comfortable. Not sure a "walking-around" lens has any point, any more than it would on an RB-67. Who's gonna "walk around" with $25,000 hanging from one neckstrap?

 

Leica is planning this though, with weather sealing and a 35mm-form factor.

[carstenw]

I find the 150mm which would be the 140 S2 great for 3/4 length stuff but if i had the 200mm or 180 mm better for tight portraits. I feel a little close to the subject when doing a portrait with the 150mm.

 

Yes, but that's because you are shooting suits instead of models Seriously, the 100mm lens proposed (not 110mm) is equivalent to 80mm on FF, so that is a classic Leica portrait lens. The 180mm sounds good for you though.

[carstenw]

Perhaps the zoom is the best selling item in other MF ranges and Leica is merely starting from that position. (edit: I meant from the point of not having a 50mm)

 

Personally, I would most probably go for the zoom for 90% of what I would use the S2 for, which is not indoor studio work.

 

A zoom is never a replacement for a popular prime, especially in the focal length which is one of the two most popular in the entire lineup. Zooms are a separate market.

 

Would the 30~90 be 20 ~ 60 in the 35mm equivalent?

 

24-70 equivalent. The "crop" factor is 0.8x.

[carstenw]

Hey, guys... ... I understand (and in a certain sense, share) your enthusiasm for S2... but give them a little time to complete the lenses' lineup ! Camera is far from being distributed... some fundamental focals are announced (and, I think, SOME of them ready for production...)... wait a little... Should it become a real success (and I will be a lot glad for them), no doubt they can even design a S-Noctilux 75 f 0,85... (btw, seem to remember that old Leitz did make a f0,85... maybe a X-Ray Summarex...)

 

BTW... the quoted 100 is a 3,5... can be it's a macro lens, for instance ?

 

Hey Luigi,

 

well, they haven't finished anything, but they have *announced* the lineup. At least they can announce correctly, even if it takes time to finish The 120 is the macro lens. The 100 is the portrait lens. LFI has more information. In fact, LFI says that the 100mm will be as fast as possible, rather than the f/2.5 and f/3.5 that others have reported.

[carstenw]

2) There is a huge gap between the 35mm and the 70mm. This means no walk-around lens for 35mm-FF fans. What is really needed here is a 50mm f/2.0 or f/2.5. This gap is so large and obvious that I wondered if Leica had done it on purpose, to leave room for a later announcement of a special lens. Well, now I have ruined that, sorry However, I like standard lenses better than 35mm lenses, so for me that is not a problem.

 

Thinking more about this, it is possible that Leica doesn't anticipate that S2 photographers will want to go as close as a traditional 35mm-equiv. lens would dictate, and the 35mm fans will move to 50mm, ie. the 70mm standard lens of the S2 system. They might be right, but the 35L is also popular with 1Ds2 users...

[Advertisement]

Hallo,

Look here: Interesting Leica gear

[lxlim]

A zoom is never a replacement for a popular prime, especially in the focal length which is one of the two most popular in the entire lineup. Zooms are a separate market.

 

 

 

24-70 equivalent. The "crop" factor is 0.8x.

 

Thanks for the info.

[paulmoore]

Thinking more about this, it is possible that Leica doesn't anticipate that S2 photographers will want to go as close as a traditional 35mm-equiv. lens would dictate, and the 35mm fans will move to 50mm, ie. the 70mm standard lens of the S2 system. They might be right, but the 35L is also popular with 1Ds2 users...

 

part of the beauty of this new system is that it isn't traditional mf..I know we have come just to accept the limited lens offerings of mf makers.. but here is the chance to have the range

of optics and the best optics made available to make large files.. I guess if people will buy they will keep bringing out new models.. but for me they have to start with the concept of making them as fast as possible as leica can do.. they would really cut this system at the knees with same-old slow lens. this is one area they can distance themselves from the pack. Don't waste time and money on slower lenses, make those later if you want to open system to a bigger group.