First S2 impressions

[leicapages]

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Yesterday I attended the Photokina in Köln and was allowed 10 minutes in the presence of a prototype S2 camera, which I could handle at will (inside the room). The Leica rep explained the system and considered it an MF system (which it actually kind of is, though CEO Kaufmann would not agree). The camera (prototype) behaved very well, taking into account that this is not even the final product. It appeared lighter than I thought it would be, and handled very well, almost like an SLR. Compared to MF systems like a Hasselblad H, it felt smaller/lighter though the actual figures may not be so far out of each other. The autofocus worked snappy enough for me. The viewfinder offered an excellent view though, it must be said, maybe not as bright as comparable viewfinders of my Rolleiflex 6008 AF and Hasselblad H1. It may be my impression, so further testing would be needed. Eye relief for eyeglass wearers is ok but less impressive than with my Rolleiflex. Built quality of the whole system is very German, meaning sturdy and well-made. I asked about pricing. The answer was that it had not yet been set and it would take into account market prices of comparable (MF) systems at the time when it would become available. In the corridors I heard anything between 15000 and 20000 euro. The Leica rep added that the system was in any case intended for professionals. He also told there was no compatibility with R lenses. The system is designed and manufactured in-house, and in Germany.

 

When pressed about a digital R prospect, he said they were working on it but could not indicate a time line. I asked if the digital R would have a full-format sensor, and he replied affirmatively.

 

All in all, I am really impressed with the S2 system though I don't think I would buy it, having already invested heavily in other systems (M, R, Rollei, Hassy). Actually, that is my main worry: why would current MF users who invested already in an expensive system dump their systems and switch to the S2? New users, of course, have an extra choice. But I wonder if that market is actually big enough for the S systems to be sustainable at a decent price. I wish Leica luck with this one. The future of the company may be depending on it, if one thinks about the investments made.

 

Pascal

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[Guest guy_mancuso]

Pascal I posted this on another thread but it does answer your question pretty well I think

 

I think the real beauty here which some folks are forgetting in this. Since I shoot MF now the S2 really is in most senses a oversized DSLR and that to me adds some power to it. If it can hold some of the speed of the DSLR camera's than this is a very interesting camera. Obviously it will not do 5 fps and frankly who cares . 1.5 FPS is faster than almost any MF system and that says a lot. Really the fastest back out there is .8 seconds until the next frame can be shot BUT that is a 18 mpx back. The biggest back coming the P65 will be 1 second, so 1.5 sounds slow to the DSLR user it really is quite fast to the MF user. Also shutter lag on my Phase is slow, the S2 sounds better from the reports. This is a bigger issue in MF since a big mirror is flying around. Now let's be realistic how many go above 1600 ISO or let's put it a better way , how many have to go past 1600. Unless your doing PJ work or wedding work ISO 1600 clean is a gift to the MF shooter. These three area's for me have my interest the most and most MF shooters are in the same boat.

 

The biggest issue here will be price and Leica needs to decide what kind of volume there after. Priced to high than MF shooters will NOT switch. Remember we will take a bath on our existing systems in resale and to toss another 15k into a new system won't happen easily for the same quality of file. Trust me when you get to MF the file quality difference between the backs is minimal. Today my lowly 22 mpx back will produce almost the same as the 39 backs the detail is better granted but it is NOT mind blowing better. Certainly a huge plus over 35mm though . These big sensors mean business. My point being guys like me need a real reason to switch over and price will be a big factor to get a faster camera. Otherwise most will stay with what they have , now obviously not counting the folks that want to move up to the S2 which by the numbers maybe more than the MF guys doing a lateral move. Still you can't ask a 1dsMKIII guy to go to far to jump up. He will gain quality for sure but will lose speed too.

 

The other is service and repair I want to be careful how I say this but if the service is not on a Pro level than seriously not many MF shooters will even bother. This is more important than anything else and i can't express that enough. The MF world is completely different than the 35mm world and if you are not getting your hand held than you will not buy. Most MF shooters can get a back by the next morning if something happens. We need our security blanket and no one will give that up as a Pro. Leica needs to figure this out getting into this MF world, not saying they won't but it is a different ball game.

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[wildlightphoto]

There's also its more manageable size and handling, weather seals, and the MTF "curves" of the lenses.

[dfarkas]

...and the MTF "curves" of the lenses.

 

I think you mean the straight lines running along the top of the MTF charts...

[wildlightphoto]

I think you mean the straight lines running along the top of the MTF charts...

 

Yes

[sdai]

I think Guy is right on it, if Leica wants to take a bite off the pro market, they'd better get ready selling some 1 year or 2 years uptime warranties.

 

In the mean time, I agree with Pascal, I think Leica's best bet is on the folks moving UP from the high end DSLRs, those who are not satisfied with 35mm but yet not ready to pay or simply can't justify the steep ticket price for a real medium format system. Therefore, Leica has to price it accordingly.

 

My worst fear is that Leica may actually hold off the release of R10 even when it's ready just because they want to sell more S2. Who was expecting a S2 anyways? ... not me.

 

By the time R10 reveals at the next trade show, how many people will talk about the S2?

[dfarkas]

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I

By the time R10 reveals at the next trade show, how many people will talk about the S2?

 

Remember, Leica is positioning the S2 as their flagship camera. The R10 and M8.2 or M9 down the road (along with anything else) will be under that. Sort of like Canon bringing out the 5DmkII and still having the flagship 1DsmkIII. Sort of....

 

So, the S2 will become the new standard by which all new Leica digital products will be judged. I think by the time the R10 comes out, people will be talking about new S lenses, just as they were talking about the new M lenses at this show.

 

David

[dfarkas]

I

By the time R10 reveals at the next trade show, how many people will talk about the S2?

 

Remember, Leica is positioning the S2 as their flagship camera. The R10 and M8.2 or M9 down the road (along with anything else) will be under that. Sort of like Canon bringing out the 5DmkII and still having the flagship 1DsmkIII. Sort of....

 

So, the S2 will become the new standard by which all new Leica digital products will be judged. I think by the time the R10 comes out, people will be talking about new S lenses, just as they were talking about the new M lenses at this show.

 

David

[stevelap]

Who was expecting a S2 anyways? ... not me.

 

 

What!! Have you been hibernating for the last couple of months?

[sdai]

What!! Have you been hibernating for the last couple of months?

 

I knew S2 was comin' - ... though I didn't have its spec. The one I really want is the R10 ... one camera with which I can use my R lenses, isn't that clear enough?

 

Everybody knew why I was here for the last 2 years ...

[zapp]

Pascal I posted this on another thread but it does answer your question pretty well I think

 

Really the fastest back out there is .8 seconds until the next frame can be shot BUT that is a 18 mpx back. The biggest back coming the P65 will be 1 second, so 1.5 sounds slow to the DSLR user it really is quite fast to the MF user.

__________________

 

Do not forget that Phase One reads 60 MegaPixels/second while Leica will read 1.5 x 37 MP/second (56 MP/s). which is a little slower than the Phase One or the comparable Leaf back. The speed of the S2 is not groundbraking, but it is used for speed rather than Pixels/second.

[rosuna]

I think you mean the straight lines running along the top of the MTF charts...

 

Where can I find those charts?

[Guest guy_mancuso]

Do not forget that Phase One reads 60 MegaPixels/second while Leica will read 1.5 x 37 MP/second (56 MP/s). which is a little slower than the Phase One or the comparable Leaf back. The speed of the S2 is not groundbraking, but it is used for speed rather than Pixels/second.

 

See I am reading this maybe slightly different and would really like this clarified by leica if someone can post here. let me explain because i think that FPS is getting confusing. Here is how i see it and hopefully someone can clear my head on this.

 

Today my Phase 25 plus can shoot EVERY 1.5 seconds, meaning i cannot shoot until 1.5 pass by. So reality is I have to wait 1.5 seconds to shoot again. Sometimes eternity. Anyway so in a 3 second time frame i can get 2 shots off

 

Now here is how I read the S2 it says 1.5 Frames per second. To me they are saying it different like Canon or Nikon would, that being within a 1 second time frame the shutter will go 1.5 times within that second. So reality is within a 3 second time frame the shutter will go 1.5 x 3 times equalling 4.5 frames

 

I know i am right on the Phase because that is what it is i have to WAIT 1.5 seconds before hitting the shutter again but am i reading the Leica S2 correctly like the canons and Nikons meanings of FPS

[diogenis]

1.5 fps means you can shoot @ 3 frames per 2 sec Guy.

If you need to wait 1.5 secs for a frame, then that means you need 2 frames per 3 secs= 2/3 frames/secs = 0.75fps, which obviously is a lot slower than 1.5 fps

[Guest guy_mancuso]

Thanks that is what i was thinking but these things are said a little different from each company. Just wanted to make sure it is faster and at that speed right up my alley.

[luigi bertolotti]

I think Guy is right on it, if Leica wants to take a bite off the pro market, they'd better get ready selling some 1 year or 2 years uptime warranties.

 

In the mean time, I agree with Pascal, I think Leica's best bet is on the folks moving UP from the high end DSLRs, those who are not satisfied with 35mm but yet not ready to pay or simply can't justify the steep ticket price for a real medium format system. Therefore, Leica has to price it accordingly.

 

My worst fear is that Leica may actually hold off the release of R10 even when it's ready just because they want to sell more S2. Who was expecting a S2 anyways? ... not me.

 

By the time R10 reveals at the next trade show, how many people will talk about the S2?[/quote]

 

Uhm... I stand to be corrected, but my bet is that R10 will NOT be aimed primarly at the pro market as S2 definitely is...

I can be wrong, of course... but I am the man who, 14 months ago, wrote in this forum that "I think their next DSLR could be even something MORE than FF..." (sorry... I cannot remeber exactly the words, nor the timing, but, damn, I WROTE it and got a lot of personal satisfaction seeing S2 arrival... btw,... a camera I'll never buy, of course... )

[Guest guy_mancuso]

With the S2 now the R10 could actually be less of a camera , not a nice way to say it but maybe go after some real cost savings for the end user. Leica may shoot me for this but I see no reason to make this body the end all in body construction, just make a simple camera with a 24 mpx sensor stolen from the S2 cut to FF sizing and just be done with it. Forget the AF and all the bells and whistle just make a 3 k body or so and let the R lenses flourish again. Sacrilegious talk i know and someone will throw rocks at me but do you really need a 6k body to shoot the R lenses. From what i can tell most R shooters just want another DMR in the same body integrated. Let's face some facts i was a DMR shooter and a damn happy one at that and every DMR shooter I know which are many are just happy as ducks in a pond and don't want a lot on it anyway. If you need more than move up to the S2 but maybe just be happy with a lessor build in costs let's say and just go shoot with it and the existing R glass and maybe make a few AF ones if the demands see fit. There never going to match the Canon and Nikon anyway so why bother trying , waste of money and energy but a lower budget body in the R maybe the ticket in that market. Hell even farm it out to be built from Panosonic or someone

 

Okay garbage can over my head . launch the rocks

[luigi bertolotti]

Guy, you expressed my same feelings... if (IF... I hope for them, by heart) S2 will result in a success in its niche market... they can be satisfied with this, for the moment... re-enter the pro market should be a REAL achievement; and in such a situation, they'd do better not to struggle at once again into it... better to target R10 to high end amateurs... forget AF, forget complex Software, streamlined body R4-7 style (and they DID display R7 at Phtokina...), R lenses compatibility, some new stunning lens (teles, luminous zooms...) and... most difficult... a decent price tag...

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[georg]

A cheap, primitive, Panasonic-build R10 wouldn't be worthy the Leica-name. It would cause further damage to the image (like the Minolta/Panasonic/Fuji/Chinese "cooperations" already did), they would loose efficiency in their development/production-department (they have to use their know-how/manpower for as many products as possible) and give know-how to Panasonic!

They already developed one of the best 35mm-SLRs in the world, the R8/9! They should combine M/R with S2-electronics (Kodak 6,0mikrometer 24MPixel-sensor, maestro-cpu, screens...) so the S2 would become "cheaper" because they can use similar technology for R10/M9 and these systems would profit from "Pro-technology"!

The R-lenses (worthy 24MP) are already too expensive to create a cheap system.

[AlanG]

Today my Phase 25 plus can shoot EVERY 1.5 seconds, meaning i cannot shoot until 1.5 pass by. So reality is I have to wait 1.5 seconds to shoot again. Sometimes eternity. Anyway so in a 3 second time frame i can get 2 shots off

 

Now here is how I read the S2 it says 1.5 Frames per second. To me they are saying it different like Canon or Nikon would, that being within a 1 second time frame the shutter will go 1.5 times within that second. So reality is within a 3 second time frame the shutter will go 1.5 x 3 times equalling 4.5 frames

 

 

From your statement, the Phase One would shoot 3 frames in 3 seconds - 1 frame, then 1.5 seconds for number 2, and then 1.5 additional seconds for frame number 3.

 

The Leica would shoot 1 frame, then 1.5 frames by second 1, 1.5 more by second #2, then 1.5 more by second #3. So it would shoot 5.5 frames in 3 seconds.

 

I am not sure if that is how the manufacturers calculate it. I think you really have to shoot a long burst of 10 seconds or so and see how many shots can be made in that period of time. Anyway, this would give a better idea of overall performance.

 

I haven't seen the Leica camera and it may truly be a wonderful device. But, as it will be a very expensive system, I think it will be very difficult for them - due to the competition, and the way the economy is heading. We're facing a severe financial downturn, with no likely way out for a number of years. I don't know how many they need to sell in order to succeed, but I don't swee how Leica could have anticipated this economic environment when making the business plan for the S2.