The best idea for the Digilux 4

[rsolomon]

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My understanding is that leica can not mass produce and make profit by selling quanity. the got to market strategy seems to be produce a lower quantity of high-end merchandise their their niche market. Due to the size of the company im not sure they have any other choice - or even want it.

 

Leica prices are high because at that price the supply meets the demand.

 

For example look at the DMR - a great concept, a technical feat, a quaility product no matter how you look at it. Leica produced 5000, sold out and never did a second run becasue they

 

1. they would have had to commint to more peices then they thought the could sell

2. they couldn;t produce it with the help of partners - and that of course creates other issues for them.

3. i don;t think they want everyone to have a leica - it removes the cache, spoils the brand, and the brand is basically the company

[J Mitchum]

Quite right, I meant D-Lux 4. Too many models. It's hard keeping up! How about a D-Lux 4 that's more like a Digilux 2, only smaller?! As for paying more for a different brand body with the same lens -- doesn't seem rational.

 

I think you mean Digilux 4 here as there is already a D-Lux 4 which is a rebadged Panasonic LX3, a tiny point and shoot camera. Leica refers to it as the "Son of M8" and if they really believe it we are in trouble. Big trouble.

[John Thawley]

My understanding is that leica can not mass produce and make profit by selling quanity. the got to market strategy seems to be produce a lower quantity of high-end merchandise their their niche market. Due to the size of the company im not sure they have any other choice - or even want it.

 

Leica prices are high because at that price the supply meets the demand.

 

For example look at the DMR - a great concept, a technical feat, a quaility product no matter how you look at it. Leica produced 5000, sold out and never did a second run becasue they

 

1. they would have had to commint to more peices then they thought the could sell

2. they couldn;t produce it with the help of partners - and that of course creates other issues for them.

3. i don;t think they want everyone to have a leica - it removes the cache, spoils the brand, and the brand is basically the company

 

WOW!!! Did you read what you wrote?

 

If you truly believe this, especially your last point (#3), then they have NO business being in business.

 

A business is NOT a brand. It is a brand PROMISE.

 

Did you forget how much money they lost last year? I posted this on another thread and I'll repeat it here. The more time I spend on this forum and the more I learn about the Leica company, the less I want to own their products. Seriously... it's becoming laughable.

 

I guess I've been duped into 5 of their rebadged products to-date. I'm going to shoot with an M8 next week. I'm sure hoping it knocks my socks off, because so far, the Leica Kool-Aid is beginning to upset my stomach.

 

JT

 

PS: In a world of $13,000 Patek watches and $150,000 IWCs, Rolex seems to plug along offering $5K stainless steel models along side of their gold $15K Presidents... and yet they survive in a luxury market. Not re-badged... but a line of luxury products with incredible reliability that supports a represents their brand and brand promise. And by the way, THE most recognizable luxury brand in the world.

[rsolomon]

yes ,

ive-read and do beleive it -- which point do you find crazy...leica is a small company, own and operated by a single very wealthy person. They can not scale to the size of N or C, and if they could or wanted to it just wouldnt be a leica. Manufactured by people and machine - not just machine.

 

an example...How many hand made suits can my local tailor make ? he is a small shop, he uses the finest material, and painstaking does 5 fits for each suit, making adjustments till it's perfect (or as close to perfect as can be expected)...... He can not produce 1000's of these suites in this manner. The customer is paying for his personal attention to detail and YES if he made 1000's of these suits he would loose customers because the demographic of the person that wants these suits wants a "special" suit.

 

Same with leica, if they played to the masses they would loose a good portion of their base customer and become a me to camera company....there to compete on features alone...a race to the bottom for leica.....

 

The BRAND is the company... the company makes lenses, not cameras, and they make them for a particular demographic, one that wants the best and willing to pay a lot more for a small but unique difference.

 

The purchase of a Leica is part emotion, the only exception in my opinion is strick professionals who NEED equipment for a job, they tend to trade and modify their equipement for the task od making $$.

[johnastovall]

[quote name=wstotler;666382

 

<snipped>

And I *hope* that the V-Lux 1 evolves into a V-Lux 2' date=' closer in body style and concept to the Digilux 2/3--with great glass and a good pricepoint.

 

Thanks,

Will[/quote]

 

Great Glass and a good price point are mutually exclusive. You can have one but not the other.

[Raymond Tam]

Leica should take the Digilux 3 case, no changes on the outside and, on the inside:

 

1. substitute an EVF for the SLR/Porro prism. In 2008, it would probably be finer resolution and faster than the 2004 Digilux 2 EVF.

 

2. Drop 4/3, and have the Digilux 4 accept Leica R lenses, with as much functionality as possible. I think that would be manual focus but program auto (as well as aperture and shutter priority) exposure. And there are a lot of R lenses on eBay.

 

3. Use a full-frame sensor. That's where the market is headed, and the R lenses, which will produce a full-frame image on film in a box about the size of the Digilux 3, would support it.

 

4. Make it in Japan for a reasonable amount of money.

 

What a camera that would be.

 

I agree with you! drop thel Digilux3 is a big waste! and the new S2

and M8.2 are generally beyond reachable by far. I dont mean it is

not worth that much.If Leica still maintain that kind of thinking and I

don't think they can beat with Nikon and Canon on general consumer

market in the near future!

Ray

[rsolomon]

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I agree with you! drop thel Digilux3 is a big waste! and the new S2

and M8.2 are generally beyond reachable by far. I dont mean it is

not worth that much.If Leica still maintain that kind of thinking and I

don't think they can beat with Nikon and Canon on general consumer

market in the near future!

Ray

 

 

Most likely spoken by someone who has used the Digilx 3, or use it with R lenses......

 

if you have used it id be curious of your impression, if you haven't id be curious why so opinioned to drop it.

[John Thawley]

... an example...How many hand made suits can my local tailor make ? he is a small shop, he uses the finest material, and painstaking does 5 fits for each suit, making adjustments till it's perfect (or as close to perfect as can be expected)...... He can not produce 1000's of these suites in this manner. The customer is paying for his personal attention to detail and YES if he made 1000's of these suits he would loose customers because the demographic of the person that wants these suits wants a "special" suit..

 

Bad analogy... I designed and sold men's custom made suits for 20 years. First... you don't have any "local tailors" making custom made suits. They're gone. If they aren't gone, they are NOT making custom suits, they are ordering "made-to-measure" suits. If they did hand make the suit, I assure you (first hand knowledge) the suit CAN NOT compete in quality in the market place. Local tailors CAN NOT buy the finest fabrics. It takes 3.5 yards to make a mans suit. You have to buy fabric in bolts... and typically more than one bolt. ESPECIALLY if you want the good stuff, like Cerruti, Zegna, or Loro Pianna. Lastly, your local tailor can not make a suit like a Kiton or Brioni that sells upwards of $3500.

 

Point is, like the dinosaur (and my apologies to Saville Row)... your local tailor the way you are describing him, is a thing of the past. He's not Italian and he's rarely English or German or any ethnicity we perceived as artisans. They're relegated to alterations.

 

I understand and support Leica's desire to remain a luxury brand and am not encouraging they develop products to sell to the masses. But, if folks on this forum want to continue to enjoy the Leica "magic" and buy quality products, they'd do better to encourage the company to step back and take a broader view of who they are and what they do.

 

I assure you, if Leica doesn't wake up and recognize some relationship to the market place, there will be no Leica... and the only asset will be the name and brand. And someone will buy that asset and bastardize the living hell out of it.

 

They need to drop the little point and shoot Panasonics, (stop playing games with the market), reassess the Digilux idea and ideals and revamp the product line with logic that relates to the market place. They need a good $3500 rangefinder (the equivalent of a professional's point n' shoot) that leads into a ladder system of products that lead people into becoming GROWING members of a GROWING Leica family.

 

It's not rocket science.

[elansprint72]

Bad analogy... I designed and sold men's custom made suits for 20 years. First... you don't have any "local tailors" making custom made suits. They're gone. If they aren't gone, they are NOT making custom suits, they are ordering "made-to-measure" suits. If they did hand make the suit, I assure you (first hand knowledge) the suit CAN NOT compete in quality in the market place. Local tailors CAN NOT buy the finest fabrics. It takes 3.5 yards to make a mans suit. You have to buy fabric in bolts... and typically more than one bolt. ESPECIALLY if you want the good stuff, like Cerruti, Zegna, or Loro Pianna. Lastly, your local tailor can not make a suit like a Kiton or Brioni that sells upwards of $3500.

 

Point is, like the dinosaur (and my apologies to Saville Row)... your local tailor the way you are describing him, is a thing of the past. He's not Italian and he's rarely English or German or any ethnicity we perceived as artisans. They're relegated to alterations.

 

 

This shop is just around the corner from my house.

 

Phillip Alexander - Home Page

[John Thawley]

This shop is just around the corner from my house.

 

Phillip Alexander - Home Page

 

I'll bet you it is not made on the premises. They aren't stocking 7000 fabrics. And, a suit takes less than 40 hours to make. So, the eight weeks is quasi-manufacturing process.

 

Now... to be clear, I applaud this accomplishment. They've taken "time honored tradition"... and made it work in the 21st century. They've adjusted and made their model work FOR THEIR CUSTOMER. They deliver on promise and meet expectation.

 

Where I see Leica missing the mark, is when they announce to their customers "we have a big surprise for you at Photokina." All the customers gather... and Leica unveils a marvelous accomplishment ... that none of their customers asked for. And, the only answer the customer gets is rumors of an R10, a price increase with modest improvements to the M8 and a couple of re badged Panasonics. That's not listening to your customer or your market.

[elansprint72]

John,

They have w work-room in the back where they completely make up the suits; the fabric come from their Saville Row address, I have no idea what their stock arrangements are.

 

They had a bit of an "event" today:

 

http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/other/64926-dummy-tailor-s.html#post672139

 

Fortunately nobody was walking past and the were no customers in the front of the shop.

[farnz]

...

They had a bit of an "event" today:

 

http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/other/64926-dummy-tailor-s.html#post672139...

They're offering a drive-through bespoke tailoring service?? Now that's what I call progress and innovation!!

 

Pete.

[John Thawley]

John,

They have w work-room in the back where they completely make up the suits; the fabric come from their Saville Row address, I have no idea what their stock arrangements are.

 

They had a bit of an "event" today:

 

http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/other/64926-dummy-tailor-s.html#post672139

 

Fortunately nobody was walking past and the were no customers in the front of the shop.

 

Somebody found out they were re-badging and not making on premises. LOL

 

Seriously, though.... my guess is that they "cut" the pattern on premises... maybe even cut the cloth. But assembly makes no sense any more. In a specialized world, each tailor will now specialize in a step in the assembly... so a shop can put the garment through production of sorts. Each person handles X number of pieces per day, based on the "quality level" of the shop. So, these garments are probably minimum number of pieces per day. So, if do pockets, you only do a few per day if you work on high-end garments. So, shops are ranked accordingly. Here in NA, they are referred to as "make"... a 1-make being low price high quantity production, a 6-make being high end shop. Setting a shoulder on a 6-make suit could include up to 40 hand operations. Consider gift wrapping a soccer ball with out any wrinkles. LOL

 

Hope they get their front fixed.

 

JT

[elansprint72]

John,

First thing I did was check the licence plate to see if it was yours!

 

What are the odds of someone mentioning a particular tailor's shop on a global photo forum and then having to rush round within 24 hours to take a photo of it for the local newspaper?

[rsolomon]

Bad analogy... I designed and sold men's custom made suits for 20 years. First... you don't have any "local tailors" making custom made suits. They're gone. If they aren't gone, they are NOT making custom suits, they are ordering "made-to-measure" suits. If they did hand make the suit, I assure you (first hand knowledge) the suit CAN NOT compete in quality in the market place. Local tailors CAN NOT buy the finest fabrics. It takes 3.5 yards to make a mans suit. You have to buy fabric in bolts... and typically more than one bolt. ESPECIALLY if you want the good stuff, like Cerruti, Zegna, or Loro Pianna. Lastly, your local tailor can not make a suit like a Kiton or Brioni that sells upwards of $3500.

 

Point is, like the dinosaur (and my apologies to Saville Row)... your local tailor the way you are describing him, is a thing of the past. He's not Italian and he's rarely English or German or any ethnicity we perceived as artisans. They're relegated to alterations.

 

I understand and support Leica's desire to remain a luxury brand and am not encouraging they develop products to sell to the masses. But, if folks on this forum want to continue to enjoy the Leica "magic" and buy quality products, they'd do better to encourage the company to step back and take a broader view of who they are and what they do.

 

I assure you, if Leica doesn't wake up and recognize some relationship to the market place, there will be no Leica... and the only asset will be the name and brand. And someone will buy that asset and bastardize the living hell out of it.

 

They need to drop the little point and shoot Panasonics, (stop playing games with the market), reassess the Digilux idea and ideals and revamp the product line with logic that relates to the market place. They need a good $3500 rangefinder (the equivalent of a professional's point n' shoot) that leads into a ladder system of products that lead people into becoming GROWING members of a GROWING Leica family.

 

It's not rocket science.

 

Simply put : The tailor is there..... and he is Italian, does this mean the rest of your arguement is wrong ?

BTW .... is the suit better than Brioni? - i can tell you the service at Brioni is outstanding and better then at the shop, however, the suit i think you could argue either way - they are both great, but different, which by the way IS Loro Pianna fabric.

 

I guess the way you throw around these names you understand the power of the brand -

 

Leica has 2 things going for it : Damn good lenses and a powerful brand.... and not necessarily in that order

[John Thawley]

Simply put : The tailor is there..... and he is Italian, does this mean the rest of your arguement is wrong ?

BTW .... is the suit better than Brioni? - i can tell you the service at Brioni is outstanding and better then at the shop, however, the suit i think you could argue either way - they are both great, but different, which by the way IS Loro Pianna fabric.

 

I guess the way you throw around these names you understand the power of the brand -

 

Leica has 2 things going for it : Damn good lenses and a powerful brand.... and not necessarily in that order

 

Now if only they understood how to leverage the power of their brand in a manner that would guarantee them a long profitable future.

 

Loro Pianna is a great example. They have been the bench mark for cashmere for near on two centuries. Today, however, you can buy many Loro Pianna branded products.

 

And, I DID NOT wreck my van into the tailor shop. LOL

[J Mitchum]

They need to drop the little point and shoot Panasonics, (stop playing games with the market), reassess the Digilux idea and ideals and revamp the product line with logic that relates to the market place. They need a good $3500 rangefinder (the equivalent of a professional's point n' shoot) that leads into a ladder system of products that lead people into becoming GROWING members of a GROWING Leica family.

 

I don't think they need to drop the point and shoot PanaLeicas as they bring in money that Leica can use on R&D for Leica designed and manufactured products. The problem is when they market them as something they are not. Claiming the D-Lux 4 as a system camera worthy of the "Son of M8" moniker is just plain silly. You could say the same about the Panasonic LX3, perhaps even more so than the D-Lux 4 judging from this photo. I would be more concerned if they actually believed it. While I appreciate Leica is doing a bit more now in terms of differentiating their models from the Panasonic versions (such as using the M8 menu color scheme) the price gap has increased too much. You could buy two Panasonic LX3's for the price of just one D-Lux 4 and that is going too far.

[J Mitchum]

I think the Digilux 4 would once again be a clone of a Panasonic. If Panasonic is working on an L2, a mFT version of the L1, then this would fit the bill. I still think Leica needs both a digital CM and digital CL in addition to this, both completely designed by Leica but perhaps manufactured by someone else. This would create a midrange lineup and fill in the gap between the Panasonic clones and the Leicas.