Defining the new digital range?

[jason]

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Ok, I'll admit I don't know a great deal about the new Leica range. One thing that has intrigued me about the new lines are the prices and their relative merits. Obviously, to someone who really knows about cameras - the M8 is worth the high price tag. However, looking at the new range of Leicas - what are the main reasons for the M8 being more expensive than the Digilux 3 etc? Where does the V-Lux fit into the equation?

 

In short, how are these models defined in terms of price and specification?

 

All comments gladly received.

 

Kind Regards

[J Mitchum]

Well, the M8 is the only true Leica of the bunch while the rest are just rebadged Panasonics. Someone else here can extol the virtues of the superior build and quality of the M8 but it's not something I'll ever own. Is it worth the price? Probably not. Realistically the M8 should cost around $3500. Yes you do need to pay more for quality but their prices have been disproportionate the past few years.

[grober]

The M8 is priced where it reportedly is because of good brand management techniques. A lower price point devalues the overall Leica brand.

 

I have one on order and sure would like to pay less than I think I'm going to pay but I fully understand why Leica has positioned and priced it thus.

[wparsonsgisnet]

 

John, I think Leica's prices have been relatively steady. The relative, of course, refers to the declining value of the $ against the Euro.

 

I would, however, have been more receptive to a lower price for the M8 than US$4775. The fact that it's below US$5k may be in response to enlightened (since it was mine) thought that a camera with so many fewer precision parts should be cheaper. However, 200-plus bucks isn't much for the bang. It should certainly have been closer to $3,500.

 

However, I'm paying my money. My primary thot with regard to price was: not only does Leica have to save the company (so the M8 can't be too cheap), but Leica also has to attract new buyers. Just because they make the best lenses doesn't mean that everyone can afford them. As an aside, it amazes me how many people can "afford" BMW's.

 

I will say that the M cameras and lenses that I own and have owned are far and away the finest products I have even seen or used in my life. The fact that they have retained their value so well doesn't hurt either.

 

I think 10 or 20 years from now when I expect still to be using my M8 -- and maybe my D2 -- that its cost will not seem so great.

 

To be honest, I would nearly categorize myself as someone who could not afford this camera. But, I am a professional photog, and I don't go out to dinner or wear shoes (just kidding about the shoes). "You pays your money and you takes your choice."

 

Regards,

[jpmay]

Say, it could be awfully ambutious thinking you will be able to use the M8 in 20 years.

 

Sure, the lenses will still be tops.

 

But all digital cameras become redundant ........ just like laptops and TVs do.

 

In 20 years (20 years!) ... not to mention 5 years ... sensor technology will be incredibly different from now. It won't just be like "a bit different," it will be a different paradigm, utterly different currently un-dreamed of technologies.

 

So I dunno about 20 year life span digital bodies .. you know?

[Guest bresson]

Bill:

I agree with you on most points but unlike film cameras I doubt that any digital camera will be useable by a profesional photographer in 10 to 20 years. It would be nice if digis were built with modular designs so that you could upgrade sensors, shutters etc. but that is not likely to happen from a manufacturing and profit point. Even repairing these digis is a daunting task .I think that many manufactures would replace rather than repair. How many computers made 10 to 20 years ago are still useable or even functioning today? $5,000 could buy a couple of nice lenses to add to my M-6 kit. Leica lenses on the other hand are worth every penny paid.

 

Brian

[dugby]

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The most likely failure of anything electrical over 5-10+ years are the capacitors.

 

Replace these in 10+ years time, and find some new batteries then, and the M8/D2 could be working again. Most frequent damage to electronics comes from leaving corroding batteries in an unattended devices for excessive time, which then causes circuit corrosion.

 

My Naim Audio pre and power amps from 1982 were re-capped and still sound better than today's new-age amps.

[ChipNovaMac]

The M8 is priced where it reportedly is because of good brand management techniques. A lower price point devalues the overall Leica brand.

 

I have one on order and sure would like to pay less than I think I'm going to pay but I fully understand why Leica has positioned and priced it thus.

 

I agree, though the relationship of the US$ verses the Euro (and other foreign currencies) IMO has a bit to do with it as well. It was not that long ago that the original T-E was about $2500US for new product. Now it is like $3500US, and will probably go higher in October with the leak of a new price list.

 

It would have been hard for Leica to offer the M8 for less than want they are planning IMO, given the price points of the MP and M7.

 

The shame of it is for US buyers we will get less than what we have been accustomed to in regards to Leica warranties. The M8 will follow the likes of the D-Lux 2, the C-Lux 1, and the Digilux 2 - offering only a two year standard (limited) warranty. Unlike the MP and M7 that offer a 3 year Passport Warranty with a 2 year additional Limited Warranty(IIRC).

 

As a Leica owner here in the US, I was willing to pony up perhaps for the M8, till I read the the warranty chart that my photo store received. The $1300US difference was worth it my mind for 5 years "peace of mind" warranty coverage. I could justify 5 years of ownership at $4800US - with a warranty. But just two years, and with out the special provision of the 6 months of the Passport Warranty - the M8 lost it luster.

 

I am now of the mindset of just making do with my M6TTL kit, and buying a Nikon film scanner to keep my love of my M6TTL alive. It may not see as much use as my Nikon DSLR kit - but I won't feel as Leica is taking advantage of me, as they move towards digital.

 

For those outside of the US here, some of this sounds like sour grapes. But for many years here in the US we have been treated with respect for the money we spent on the R and M class.

 

I do have to add that my current feelings about the M8 are based on the $4800US price and the what if they came out with an M8-2 with 14 to 16mp in four to five years time?

 

I just sold today my M6TTL .58 black chrome (new) and my used T-E 2nd generation (used) for far more than I paid for them a few years back. Unless the US$ continues it slide - I can not expect even to break even on the M8 two to five years down the road.

 

Leica has been about "long term" value. My buying the T-E (49mm) used at $1200US and being able to get $1800 used as a trade shows the value. Same percentages for my M6TLL black chrome.Sure I could have gotten more by selling on my own. But why bother with "idiots" that want to find an excuse on EBay to "diss" you?

 

Regards,

 

Chip

[ChipNovaMac]

Say, it could be awfully ambutious thinking you will be able to use the M8 in 20 years.

 

I could not agree more. This is one reason I stopped lusting for the M8. As much as I wanted a smaller kit - the math did not hold up for me at least. Long term I can see my M6TTL lasting much longer than the M8.

 

In 20 years (20 years!) ... not to mention 5 years ... sensor technology will be incredibly different from now. It won't just be like "a bit different," it will be a different paradigm, utterly different currently un-dreamed of technologies.

 

So I dunno about 20 year life span digital bodies .. you know?

 

Right you are IMO. I can't see more than a 10 year life span for the likes of the M8 - and that is if Leica is still with us us at that point in time.

 

That is why I hope that we see more cameras like the Sigma DP1 (though with a faster lens perhaps).I do think that there is a demand for an APS-C sensor camera with an 28 or 35 FOV, or a decent 28-80 35mm FOV zoom.

[john_r_smith]

Well, my view would be (and it won't be popular) -

 

never buy into expensive or groundbreaking digital technology, or version one of anything. Buy the cheap stuff that represents great value after it has become established over time, and be prepared to dump it into the skip after 3 years of use. Yes, it's wasteful, environmentally obscene, and goes against all my instincts, but that's how it is. Unfortunately digital cameras, no matter how expensive, come into this category too. In five years time, probably, let alone ten, Leica's digital camera line of 2006 will seem very undesirable and very outdated. So (if you're not a pro) don't buy the expensive one - buy the cheap P&S, have fun with it, and be prepared to dump it sooner than later. If you are a pro you can probably write all this off against tax anyway.

 

John

[stunsworth]

Maybe you're right - I really don't know. I do remember when the DMR spec was announced that people were saying that it was too little, too late. That by the time it was released we'd all be using 20-30 mpix cameras. Well the DMR came and _wasn't_ too little to late. The pixel wars seem to be approaching their conclusion, the race seems to have flattened of recently. Perhaps people are realising that what is needed are better pixels, not more of them :-)

[marknorton]

Based on that advice then, with two M*s and a Tri-Elmar/Finder plus various accessories on order, I must be certifiable.

 

The key to buying the M8 is to be able to use my Leica glass on it. Only the Epson allows me to do that currently and there is a world of difference between the support Epson are giving this camera and the support I have already had from Leica coding my lenses and making some minor repairs in the process.

 

There's no reason to believe that the electronics in the M8 will be short-lived and it does not employ the type of stressed smoothing capacitors dugby will have had replaced in his Naim amplifier.

 

I full expect to be able to use my M8s for years to come and that Leica will be there to support the product.

[john_r_smith]

Mark et al

 

don't misunderstand me here, I don't think for a moment that your M8 won't still work perfectly in ten years time. It's just that I don't think you will want to use it. When the HP Deskjet inkjet printer first came out I bought one of the first ones in the UK, I think it cost me about £750 at the time. It still works perfectly, but sits like an old dinosaur on a shelf at home. This year I got an HP 8050 for £85 that does colour photos, B/W photos, and text at a speed that that makes the old Deskjet look ridiculous. And I could quote a host of other examples from here at work (where I am the section IT manager), including a cupboard full of digital cameras (none more than four years old) that no-one wants to use any more.

[studiosixtyseven]

I think that leica build the M8 for FF, look at the finder and shutter. The mechanical part from the M8 can stay for years, but the sensor will be old in 2 years, i think that the design of the M8 is build in mind to upgrade to FF. when the M8 II wil come out then i will pay the full price, now i need to buy even more expensive lenses to get wide angle.

and the new M8 will not be M9 but M8 v2 something like that....

[wattsy]

The M8 will follow the likes of the D-Lux 2, the C-Lux 1, and the Digilux 2 - offering only a two year standard (limited) warranty. Unlike the MP and M7 that offer a 3 year Passport Warranty with a 2 year additional Limited Warranty(IIRC).

 

Do you know this for a fact? I'd be surprised if the M8 doesn't come with a Passport warranty. The M8 is a 'proper' Leica product - not a Panasonic clone - and I expect Leica will support it in the same way they do all their other 'Made in Germany' products.

[wattsy]

In five years time, probably, let alone ten, Leica's digital camera line of 2006 will seem very undesirable and very outdated.

 

This is probably still true but I suspect that a 10MP quality digital camera will seem less dated (and be more usable) in five or so years time than the 3.3MP Canon D30 and 2MP (?) Nikon D1 cameras are today. My own feeling about the M8 is that if it provides me with 3+ years of solid performance I will be very happy. The savings made on film/development costs (plus, more importantly, scanning time) will make the £2.5K (ex. vat) cost a bit of a bargain.

[john_r_smith]

Ian

 

three years? Really? You are prepared to spend £3,000 on a fine, state-of-art Leica camera body and write off the cost in three years? Well, a business like ours here at work may be prepared to do that. Or a pro photographer who can write it off against tax. But we seem to be losing a sense of proportion here. Not long ago as a dedicated amateur you could buy a Hasselblad, Rolleiflex, or a Leica, having scraped together all your disposable income for years to do it, and assume (quite rightly) that it would last you for the rest of your life, properly cared for and serviced. What the hell happened to this ethos, or the people out there for whom long-term quality really mattered?

 

John

[wattsy]

Ian

three years? Really? You are prepared to spend £3,000 on a fine, state-of-art Leica camera body and write off the cost in three years? Well, a business like ours here at work may be prepared to do that

 

Just to be clear, the M8 will be a business purchase for me and written off accordingly. However, I still think the argument holds true for amateur use. A heavy user should be able to get £3K worth of value from the M8 in a three year or so period and still have a camera probably worth at least 30% of the present cost. The economics of buying digital do seem to be very different from the economics of buying conventional film gear and I don't think the M8 will change that. Don't forget that the body is only part of the equation. Purchasing two or three Leica lenses is increasingly a major commitment and these clearly will have much longer term value (for both pro and amateur use).

[john_r_smith]

All fair points, Ian, and I had forgotten yours would be a business purchase. It's just that you can buy a brand new Hasselblad 503CW, with 80mm Planar, for £2,400 at present, and it *will* last you the rest of your life - if you can find any film to put in it in 10 years time, of course

 

John

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[pekem]

John, I think Leica's prices have been relatively steady. The relative, of course, refers to the declining value of the $ against the Euro.

 

 

 

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I think 10 or 20 years from now when I expect still to be using my M8 -- and maybe my D2 -- that its cost will not seem so great.

 

 

 

 

10 or 20 years!

This seems to be wildy optimistic if it is thought that the D8 and M8 will be in regular use in twenty years from now.

Past performance of Leica would suggest that the M8 will be folowed by at least three more M models in that time span and I suspect that any early adopter of such technology now is likely to continue to be an early adopter in twenty years from now.

Technology will continue to be developed and I think that even a futureologist would struggle today to describe the kind of equipment that will be on offer in 2026.