More M8 Hands-On Impressions

[jlm]

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sean: thanks for the enlightenment. i spent many fixated years a la Zone VI after testing Tri-x and Hc110 for 35, 120 and 4x5 to lock in the usable ISO for optimum negative density range.

 

i needed my eyes opened for ISo as the third variable.

[Guest guy_mancuso]

I think the point that Sean and others are trying to make is the camera needs to be intutive and work in a fashion that is quickly adjustable without removing your eye and looking down, which is not hard to do but also takes away from getting a image when needed. Now the ISO setting should be in the top circular with the battery and frame counter. A quick glance is all that is needed to know were you are at. Or this same display could be in the viewfinder/ maybe crowded there but the information should be in a place that is obvious and in plane sight. Now the control for this can be like Sean and I have been saying even though I think we are slightly different on the process of doing it , both ways give quick settings and changes can be made on the fly. How important is this feature and how often will you change the ISO on the fly. Well that is up to the shooter BUT let's remember this is a major plus for digital is your not stuck with a roll of film at ISO 100. Let's just say your outside shooting a little town and taking some nice pics of the buildings in sunlight and a interesting person walks by you and goes into a coffee shop , well ISO 100 is not going to be the easiest speed to deal with so a quick flip of the ISO to 640 or more and you can get the shot. Okay that was just a simple example but you get my point . For a journalist this maybe a a situation that may never happen again and could blow a great set of images. So this does need to be a little faster to deal with . So my theory is use the left or right arrow than hit the dial up or down to go up or down on ISO and i will throw Seans idea in there yuo hit the protect button to confirm. With EV use the arrows again now hit the up or down arrows and move the dial up or down to change it but this time no protect button. You want that fliud in the camera to make even more of a change. Sean idea differs I think slightly from mine but also very effective also . The point is what we are both saying is our eye stays in the viewfinder on the ready switch to shoot.

 

Now EV is even more important becuase it is more fliud and of course the A modes at least on the DMR is awesome, Leica metering is tremendous but you do need to make adjustments according to the histogram and the light situation. now for Raw shooters there is some play being under or over, i know this to well myself but a jpeg shooter this becomes even more critical, the idea behind jpeg is mostly it is there for journalist that shoots and quickly transmit data to there home base, Very rarely do these guys get the chance to make post adjustments .

 

The bottom line on this is it needs to made for a wide gamut of shooters from journalist to commercial and for our hobbyist friends which there will be many with the M8. This camera is truly a work of art and i is really going to affect the market and the RF film shooters that want to get into digital. So giving them fast intuitive controls is really essential.

 

Now let me put my plug in for a Post processing section of this forum again. We have thousands and thousand of these hitting the market and many will be new to digital , lets face the facts film is great but it is a dying art and many will switch but don't have the knowledge to do it. there are many like myself that have been on this road awhile that can provide the knowledge to help them and getting help from shooters that been on this path for awhile is the quick learning curve they need to be looking at.

 

Sorry for the long post and i am not going to spell check it. no coffee yet. LOL

[kidigital]

Excellent posts Sean and Guy. With the accessibility and usability of the ISO control on the RD-1, I have found that I have changed ISO settings much more than I have with any camera in the past. As I hardly ever use flash and like to shoot as near to wide open as possible (a real pleasure with Leica's fast M lenses), I commend you both for bringing up the EV and ISO control issues. Leica is a company that strives for engineering excellence. It's good to challenge them in a way that will help improve the usability of what looks to be an outstanding product.

 

Guy, you are absolutely correct about the call for a post-processing section of the forum. As intuitive as I'm certain the M8 is going to be to use, for those familiar with digital photography, raw software, Photoshop, etc., it does figure to present a learning curve to Leica users who will make the M8 their first move into the digital realm. Tips and hints from those that have already made the transition would be a very big Leica community benefit.

 

Kurt

[sean_reid]

Excellent posts Sean and Guy. With the accessibility and usability of the ISO control on the RD-1, I have found that I have changed ISO settings much more than I have with any camera in the past. As I hardly ever use flash and like to shoot as near to wide open as possible (a real pleasure with Leica's fast M lenses), I commend you both for bringing up the EV and ISO control issues. Leica is a company that strives for engineering excellence. It's good to challenge them in a way that will help improve the usability of what looks to be an outstanding product.

 

Guy, you are absolutely correct about the call for a post-processing section of the forum. As intuitive as I'm certain the M8 is going to be to use, for those familiar with digital photography, raw software, Photoshop, etc., it does figure to present a learning curve to Leica users who will make the M8 their first move into the digital realm. Tips and hints from those that have already made the transition would be a very big Leica community benefit.

 

Kurt

 

Hi Kurt,

 

I agree with the whole post. The great thing about the ISO control on the R-D1 is that it can be done by feel alone, in the pitch dark if needed. Full clock-wise is ISO 200, full counter-clockwise is 1600 and the other two speeds can be felt as detents. That is a very ergonomic design, in my book. I also agree that making Leica aware of potential improvements via discussions in this forum, reviews, etc. is important to improving the"breed" over time. We, those of us who are serious M8 buyers, will be the Darwin-esque influence on future cameras in this line.

 

I also agree that a post-processing forum is a great idea and I'd be happy to contribute there as time allows.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

[marknorton]

Bill

 

I would like to have seen the ISO and EV readily displayed but in fact, it's just a press of the SET button away to see all the key shooting parameters.

[sean_reid]

sean: thanks for the enlightenment. i spent many fixated years a la Zone VI after testing Tri-x and Hc110 for 35, 120 and 4x5 to lock in the usable ISO for optimum negative density range.

 

i needed my eyes opened for ISo as the third variable.

 

I know what you mean. For years, I was standardized at ISO 250 for roll-fim Tri-X (pulling the development about 15% to get a long scale negative) and ISO 320 for Tri-X sheet film (with similar adjustments).

 

Now, it's a new ball game with this new medium and we have the opportunity to rethink the way we work. The M8 was clearly designed with excellent input from film photographers. There's also a lot that Leica did right with the digital aspects of the camera: large LCD, good RAW buffer, fast response time for everything, etc. There's just more that can be done with future models with respect to the joining of digital controls and ergonomics.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

[sean_reid]

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Bill

 

I would like to have seen the ISO and EV readily displayed but in fact, it's just a press of the SET button away to see all the key shooting parameters.

 

Hi Mark,

 

Yes, and while that's not as useful as finder or camera top displays (I'm with Guy on having ISO display on the top circle in a future model), it is a decent second-best. Tweaking the controls via firmware could speed the settings process even further. Again, I agree with Guy that the less time one must spend with his eye away from the finder, the better (and have made this comment many times in reviews).

 

I prefer to work using the LCD display as little as possible (unless I need to check histograms) and I think a photographer should be able to see ISO and EV settings just by glancing down at the camera (as Bill alluded to). Certainly, most of us like being able to do that to see aperture and shutter speed.

 

Best to talk about this now because once we're allowed to publish on file quality, that will become a central focus of discussion.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

[kidigital]

Sean,

 

I read your review, but with all of the noise out there on the M8, I can't remember your take on the M8 viewfinder size and accuracy versus that of the R-D1. Would you mind providing a quick sentence or two? Thanks in advance.

 

I've been lucky, the R-D1 I have is very much in alignment. I have found, though, that to get consistent, accurate (wide open) focus with my Noctilux and the 75/2 that the Megapearl magnifier that I have on the camera is a lifesaver. My eyes are still very good but I'm wondering how likely it will be that I will need to use the magnifier on the M8.

 

Kurt

[marknorton]

As the DMR already shows these settings, it's interesting to see where they cut it for the M8 - battery and memory in, the rest out. Leaving aside issues of space and cost for a larger display, we can imaging the discussion of the +/-'s of that decision.

 

I think they face the difficult task of trying to please all of the people some of the time and that whatever they chose, some would not like it. But I'm with you, I'd like to have seen the ISO and EV+/- in the display as well.

[manolo]

ISO-EXPOSURE COMP. Since we are on this topic

 

I would like to ask: (shooting in raw and A mode) is it the same to change eather of these two settings?

[sean_reid]

ISO-EXPOSURE COMP. Since we are on this topic

 

I would like to ask: (shooting in raw and A mode) is it the same to change eather of these two settings?

 

Not the same at all, actually. EV comp just biases the metering in one direction or another. ISO actually changes the sensitivity of the camera by amplifying the signal from the sensor.

 

If the camera is under by a 1/2 stop when choosing 1/250 at F/8 at ISO 160 and EV is not corrected then it will still be under 1/2 stop when one changes to ISO 320, the camera will just move to 1/500 shutter.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

[sean_reid]

As the DMR already shows these settings, it's interesting to see where they cut it for the M8 - battery and memory in, the rest out. Leaving aside issues of space and cost for a larger display, we can imaging the discussion of the +/-'s of that decision.

 

I think they face the difficult task of trying to please all of the people some of the time and that whatever they chose, some would not like it. But I'm with you, I'd like to have seen the ISO and EV+/- in the display as well.

 

Hi Again Mark,

 

As I mentioned in the review, I have a hunch that the process worked a bit differently. I think that Leica defined what the "essential" controls should be based on M film cameras and then designed the M8 accordingly. What has changed with the new medium is that there are now a couple more controls that have become near as essential as aperture and shutter speed. It's the core sense of "essential", then, that needs to be re-examined by Leica and I've certainly talked to them about that.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

[sean_reid]

Sean,

 

I read your review, but with all of the noise out there on the M8, I can't remember your take on the M8 viewfinder size and accuracy versus that of the R-D1. Would you mind providing a quick sentence or two? Thanks in advance.

 

I've been lucky, the R-D1 I have is very much in alignment. I have found, though, that to get consistent, accurate (wide open) focus with my Noctilux and the 75/2 that the Megapearl magnifier that I have on the camera is a lifesaver. My eyes are still very good but I'm wondering how likely it will be that I will need to use the magnifier on the M8.

 

Kurt

 

Hi Kurt,

 

I would recommend the 1.25 magnifier for a 75 although it may not be essential. The finder mag is less than that of the R-D1 of course (.68) but it's great and I had no concerns about it at all. Really feels like a .72 M7. I'll do specific accuracy tests on the frame lines in the next review but my sense is that they are more accurate than those of the R-D1. If you get a chance, reread the article and see the more specific discussion there.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

[Guest guy_mancuso]

Remember A mode is aperture driven so any EV adjustment will be with shutter.

 

Thanks Kurt for the nice comments, as you know I have been shooting digital since the beginning like 13 years ago or more i believe so my comments come from shooting DSLR's and how digital works from that the M8 is really no different in that sense, the same principles apply. The M system for me is virgin territory so when I speak of controls it comes from this understanding and for folks like Sean that are RF shooters undertstand the camera controls itself. So these combined thoughts are very important because they merge to the same conclusions. the M8 will be a huge success and i love everything about it and the fact that leica will continue to improve in the digital world, like i said before how many first OEM camera's out there are a true success story , leica will be the first in both the R and M . this is a major accomplishment that many don' understand how hard this is too do. I think comments from Sean, myself and others are meant not to be moaning or bitching about them, truly quite the opposite. Coming from digital shooters we are simply giving them idea's that fit shooters of digital better and not so much coming from film.

[frc]

Perhaps The Leica techs were trying to hard to stay inside the film way of thinking.

Having iso directly accessible would be fantastic, one could keep a hyperfocal setting with a short shuttertime in dim light with the high iso that is now available on the M8.

Doing must of my shooting on film this possibility hadn't come across my mind yet.

On my D 70 S DSLR iso is to far away in the menu to change instantly, on an M it could, should be as easy as possible to change.

Realizing this I may not keep the M8 till it dies but will hopefully be able to sell it for a good price when a future M will leave the analog heritage behind and be fully equiped with every usable feature directly accessible.

M7 and MP me be the conclusion of 50 years of development on film cameras, the M8 seems to be mere the start of a new leap into the future.

[sean_reid]

Perhaps The Leica techs were trying to hard to stay inside the film way of thinking.

Having iso directly accessible would be fantastic, one could keep a hyperfocal setting with a short shuttertime in dim light with the high iso that is now available on the M8.

 

Exactly! One can do that and work with the lowest ISO available for that particular lighting. That's exactly the way I can work with the R-D1 now (and have for the past two years).

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

[Guest guy_mancuso]

I agree that leica was thinking more on the lines for there film shooters and really they did a awesome job , but a small firmware change is still easy to do and really no hardware change at all just tweak the firmware to do it slightly different. This camera is almost a 10 not counting image quality yet but just a firmware tweak like we have been saying would make just a little better and still stay within there film transition thoughts. Just make the Battery , Frame counter fonts just a touch smaller and add the ISO. 3 lines of data can fit in that circle LCD and it would still be very readable. Really that is the only physical change the rest is inside and the buttons and dials already exist

[rvaubel]

Hey Folks

Over on the thread "first M8 shots" there was a Japanese site listed that allegedly had a couple M8 shots from the show. I downloaded them (full JPEGs) and they look crediable to me. EXIF file identifies camera as an M8 with Leica like ISO values (1200 and 160)

 

I'm no forgery expert, so take a look

 

Rex

[manolo]

ISO actually changes the sensitivity of the camera by amplifying the signal from the sensor.

 

Sean

 

I'll just give a concrete example: if I am shooting in low available light and I know that the speed with maximum aperture won't be enough, I sometimes underexpose the image by -1 or so (this brings the speed higher) and then when I process in RAW I can correct the exposure.

 

If the correction is too much I then get noise as if I originally had made the shot with a higher ISO

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Hallo,

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[sean_reid]

I'll just give a concrete example: if I am shooting in low available light and I know that the speed with maximum aperture won't be enough, I sometimes underexpose the image by -1 or so (this brings the speed higher) and then when I process in RAW I can correct the exposure.

 

If the correction is too much I then get noise as if I originally had made the shot with a higher ISO

 

Hi,

 

There are three different ideas here that we should be careful not to conflate.

 

1) Using EV compensation to correct a camera's metering so as to give a desired "correct" exposure

 

2) Changing ISO to increase or decrease a camera's sensitivity.

 

3) Intentionally under-exposing with plans to boost levels during RAW conversion.

 

There has, in the past, been discussion on the forum that underexposing and pushing exposure back up in RAW conversion works as well as boosting ISO in-camera. As a rule, I don't find that to be the case.

 

To be continued, gotta run...sorry

 

S