mann61 Posted August 13, 2008 Share #1 Posted August 13, 2008 Advertisement (gone after registration) Hi everyone.I use an R8 and Contax Gs.I love them all dearly,but they are all battery dependent;no batteries= a paperweight. So I want to buy an early M.I have 3 lined up all in the same condition.M3 (1961)an M2c/w working meter(1965) and an M4(1966).The M3 and M2 are £500 and the M4 is £600. I will probably buy a 50mm lens.I will also use a sekonic meter. I have done some research on the net but i would appreciate your help.I don't want to start another war. Cheers. DM Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted August 13, 2008 Posted August 13, 2008 Hi mann61, Take a look here M Help. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
Guest jimmy pro Posted August 13, 2008 Share #2 Posted August 13, 2008 Hi everyone.I use an R8 and Contax Gs.I love them all dearly,but they are all battery dependent;no batteries= a paperweight. ...like your cellphone and your car. The R8 and Contax G battery's last for many many rolls of film and there small and lightweight and have a shelf life of like 10 yrs. What's the BFD about carrying a set of spares? One loose screw or busted spring and a M2 etc will be a paperweight to. If you want an old Leica just go ahead and buy one, you'll get plenty of cheering around here even from me, so why rationalize it with "no batteries=a paperweight". As to what one of the above to buy my advice is buy whatever one has been CLA'd the most recently. If none of them have then buy on features like framelines (M4 has the biggest assortment) or operating conveniance (M4 has faster loading and better rewinder w/crankhandle and nicer advancer lever) and then figure about 300 bucks to get it CLA'd. Oh yea the M4 also has a different glue holding the rangefinder prisms together that doesn't split apart from age like the M2 and M3 (this was told to me by Sherry). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mann61 Posted August 13, 2008 Author Share #3 Posted August 13, 2008 Thankyou Jimmy.Yes I know the car etc are battery dependent and it's no problem carrying batteries around.But if the electrics go on a G2(as with one of mine)or R8 develops electrically gliches (which mine has) then a purely mechanical camera,although things will fall out or break,seems interesting to me.Also there are lots of lenses out there for the M system. Your point on the M4 was very useful and has probably swayed me to buy one. Maybe it's the time I bought an M camera that's all! There is know real reason,I have enough cameras,I just want to simplify things.I have recently gone back to processing my own films and printing in my darkroom.My Nikon scanner is collecting dust! DM Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bill Posted August 13, 2008 Share #4 Posted August 13, 2008 DM, I understand your quandary. Given the choice, and having had an M4 in the past, out of your choices I would go for the M2. Any of them would need a CLA, so you should factor that into the cost. The M3 has the drawback of needing "goggled" 35mm lenses - something that can be a real pain. Both it and the M2 have "uncluttered" viewfinder frames (ie not in pairs) - 50/90/135 in the case of the M3 and 35/50/90 in the case of the M2. The later M4, if it still has the original finder will have 35/50/90/135 framelines with the 35 & 135 framelines "paired" If it has been "upgraded" with M6 framelines it will also have 28 and 75mm lines paired as follows: 28/90. 50/75. Many regard the M3 (and to a lesser extent the M2) to be better built and more robust than the M4. In particular the angled rewind crank on the M4 is seen as a weak-point in comparison to the simpler and more direct rewind knobs on the M3 and M2. I wouldn't worry too much about the working meter with the M2 - I'm assuming it is a coupled Leicameter? "working" is not necessarily the same as "accurate" and it too will almost certainly need a service and possibly recalibration. It's something else to go wrong. Half the fun of the old meterless Leicas is to use them with the Sunny-16 rule anyway, or with a hand-held meter if you must. So in summary, of the three I would go for the M2 - solid build, uncluttered framelines, nothing that can't be repaired, and simply a delight to use. Follow the link in my signature to see photos taken with the M2. Regards, Bill Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
richam Posted August 13, 2008 Share #5 Posted August 13, 2008 Check out Leica M Guide for details of the differences between the cameras. Generally, the newer the better, but you will probably need to factor in the CLA for those cameras that need it. The lack of 35mm framelines on the M3 are a consideration. I started in Ms with 50mm lens, but get more use out of my 35mm lenses. IMO, Leica M and rangefinder shooting in general seem to go more naturally with a 35mm focal length. FWIW, I got a Canadian made M4-2 at a very reasonable price. It works well without the need for a CLA. I believe the Canadian models are going for relatively lower used prices, due to not being of German manufacture. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_livsey Posted August 13, 2008 Share #6 Posted August 13, 2008 Another M2 vote. Uncluttered viewfinder with 35mm frame. Superb build quality and tactile feel. Really should't be saying all this it may push prices up Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bill Posted August 13, 2008 Share #7 Posted August 13, 2008 Advertisement (gone after registration) FWIW, I got a Canadian made M4-2 at a very reasonable price. It works well without the need for a CLA. I believe the Canadian models are going for relatively lower used prices, due to not being of German manufacture. I *think*, although I can't remember exactly, that the M4-2 and M4p had steel, rather than brass gears, so that they could be used with the Leica winder. This tends to make them less smooth in use and may influence secondhand prices. Regards, Bill Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
earleygallery Posted August 13, 2008 Share #8 Posted August 13, 2008 Any of the M's from M3 to M6 will fit the bill (OK the M5 and M6 have built in meters but the rest of the camera is fully mechanical so the meter is 'optional'). Personally I would go for the M2 or M4 - I own an M2 now, had owned an M3 in the past and just didn't get on with it. I think I realise now that it was the curved edges on the 50mm viewfinder frame. Might sound silly but it really distracts me. I noticed this when I picked up an SL for the first time recently. Also I didn't like the handling. My M3 came with a Leicameter fitted which I used but now realise that it was the meter that I didn't like - it makes the camera bulky and top heavy. All purely my experience and opinion of course, others will disagree. Basically there's no wrong answer, so make your choice and enjoy. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Photoskeptic Posted August 13, 2008 Share #9 Posted August 13, 2008 Having had extensive experience with M3, M4 and M6TTL and providing you're only planning on using a 50, then, IMO, you gotta go for the M3. The viewfinder advantage is huge (largest and will not flare). a balsam glue for the viewfinder which will turn a golden color over time and can come apart. Generally though, the ones which come apart are those made in the 1950's and they can be repaired (see Don Goldberg). And I'll have to disagree with James, the sheer build quality of the M3 wins me over. ANY of them will be a fine shooting tool. Good luck . Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
richam Posted August 13, 2008 Share #10 Posted August 13, 2008 Another M2 vote. Uncluttered viewfinder with 35mm frame. Superb build quality and tactile feel. I tend to agree. I have an M2 and f 2.8 35mm Summaron that make a very sweet package. Great feel, superb images. Any advantages of the M-4 series plastic tipped advance lever, canted rewind knob with flip out winding arm, and tulip take up, are overshadowed by the ruggedness of the M2 design. And if you ever have to load or unload in complete darkness or in a changing bag, I'll take the original M2 take up spool anytime over the tulip. It's much easier to do properly by feel. I've had some experience with Kodak HIE infrared on this. And Bill, I can verify that My M4-2 has steel gears so that a rapid winder can be fitted. Nonetheless, the mechanism is very smooth. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest jimmy pro Posted August 13, 2008 Share #11 Posted August 13, 2008 Any advantages of the M-4 series plastic tipped advance lever, canted rewind knob with flip out winding arm, and tulip take up, are overshadowed by the ruggedness of the M2 design. And Bill, I can verify that My M4-2 has steel gears so that a rapid winder can be fitted. Nonetheless, the mechanism is very smooth. Your seeming to talk in referance to your M4-2 and mention "the M-4 series" etc. as "overshadowed" by the M2 ruggedness. However, the M4-2 and M4-P can't or shouldn't be lumped with the M4, which is built to a much higher quality then the M4-2 and -P and every bit as rugged as the M2. Actually the changes from the M2 to M4 were results of Leitz polling the pro's and takeing there suggestions...maybe the last time Leica ever did that. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
richam Posted August 13, 2008 Share #12 Posted August 13, 2008 Your seeming to talk in referance to your M4-2 and mention "the M-4 series" etc. as "overshadowed" by the M2 ruggedness. However, the M4-2 and M4-P can't or shouldn't be lumped with the M4, which is built to a much higher quality then the M4-2 and -P and every bit as rugged as the M2. Actually the changes from the M2 to M4 were results of Leitz polling the pro's and takeing there suggestions...maybe the last time Leica ever did that. I was specifically referring to the advance and rewinding mechanisms. If the plastic advance lever and flip out rewind arm are "every bit as rugged as the M2," then why did Leica return to the single piece metal advance lever and knurled knob rewind on the current MP? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest jimmy pro Posted August 13, 2008 Share #13 Posted August 13, 2008 I was specifically referring to the advance and rewinding mechanisms. If the plastic advance lever and flip out rewind arm are "every bit as rugged as the M2," then why did Leica return to the single piece metal advance lever and knurled knob rewind on the current MP? ROFL! To appeal to the nostalgia of course! Think about it rationally for a second. Leica kept the plastic advance lever and flip out rewind arm all the way thru the M4-2, M4-P, M6, M6TTL and M7. Infact they kept on with it in the M7 even after the MP, and they even offer it as an alacarte option on the MP. So for 25 years it was rugged enough, back when lot's of pros actually used Leica's. By the time the MP came along Hermies owned a chunk of Leica and the main people they aimed the MP at were rich amatuers who stick them in $300 Italian leather cases. I've seen scads of old Leica's and maybe one or two had the plastic thumb thing missing...and I mean missing as in the screw must of fell off, not the plastic broke off. If you pull the arm out and look underneath you'll see the plastic just fits over a metal piece, it isn't entirely plastic. And sure if you whack the rewind against something really hard you could bend it. But whack an M2 against something really hard today and (according to Sherry) there's a good chance the rangefinder prism will split apart. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
earleygallery Posted August 13, 2008 Share #14 Posted August 13, 2008 But whack an M2 against something really hard today and (according to Sherry) there's a good chance the rangefinder prism will split apart. Just tried it, smashed mine against a brick wall several times, grazed my knuckles but the prism seems fine. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bill Posted August 13, 2008 Share #15 Posted August 13, 2008 I was specifically referring to the advance and rewinding mechanisms. If the plastic advance lever and flip out rewind arm are "every bit as rugged as the M2," then why did Leica return to the single piece metal advance lever and knurled knob rewind on the current MP? Because they are stronger and mechanically simpler. No contest. Fewer moving parts and direct, rather than indirect, application of torque is preferable. Regards, Bill Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest jimmy pro Posted August 13, 2008 Share #16 Posted August 13, 2008 Just tried it, smashed mine against a brick wall several times, grazed my knuckles but the prism seems fine. ROFLMAO! Good one! Now try it again without your knuckles between the camera and the wall Hell, swing it from the strap whydontcha? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest jimmy pro Posted August 13, 2008 Share #17 Posted August 13, 2008 Because they are stronger and mechanically simpler. No contest. Fewer moving parts and direct, rather than indirect, application of torque is preferable. Regards, Bill ROFLTMAO! You see, back in the days of the M4 and even M6, guy's who used them were mostly caring about getting one roll out and the next roll in as quick as possible so they could shoot more pictures. Today's users can give there subjects a lecture on the application of torque while they sit patiently waiting for grandpa to change film Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bill Posted August 13, 2008 Share #18 Posted August 13, 2008 Just tried it, smashed mine against a brick wall several times, grazed my knuckles but the prism seems fine. Cruelty to walls, James! You should know better. Regards, Bill Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mann61 Posted August 13, 2008 Author Share #19 Posted August 13, 2008 well,you all have been a great help.Jimmy made a good argument for the M4 while others are opting for the M2.So,it is between the two.I do like the uncluttered viewfinder M2 but the M4 is a newer camera.The sunny 16 rule is ok for b/w but for E6? Keep your ideas flowing I'm gaining valuable info.I could buy a second R8,but why?What will it add?The Ms seem to be the way forward. DM Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
HarryW Posted August 13, 2008 Share #20 Posted August 13, 2008 I bought an M2 from Ffordes a couple of weeks ago - wonderful feel and quality. With the exception of a tiny piece of vulcanite missing and a small nick on the top plate this is in great condition for a 42 year old camera. Sorry that I can't give a comparative comment against the M3 and M4 but if they are of the same quality as the M2 I don't believe that you will go wrong with any of them. Ffordes are very good to deal with and it may be worth looking at their website. All of their second hand goods come with a six month parts and labour guarantee which to me seemed a better and safer bet than buying from E-bay. You will come in under your £500 for an M2 although this will not include a meter. I bought a CV 40 mm f1.4 with the M2 and it makes a good compact package which can slip in a jacket pocket. So I guess that I'm now saving up for another lens or is it another body or both . I'm persevering with Sunny 16 at present as my Weston Master V is presently in for repair. Hope that you find the camera that you are looking for. Regards Harry Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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