vic vic Posted October 1, 2006 Author Share #21 Posted October 1, 2006 Advertisement (gone after registration) i see that there are two similar threads here - one tat i started one of jaaks... i will answer here at the moment... about richman's view - ya i read it now.. i agree that there will be some discomfort for users of hasselblad h series (personally i dont use it , and it neither gonna be my first choice for digi-medium format transition, so i look at it from more neutral point of view). 1. full frame.. i think i agree with this name - this is the new standart of medium - about the 48x26. so why call full frame by the old days??? dont take me wrong - i love far better the film than the digi... but it has nothing to do with it... manufacturers do a very good job in technology advance - they (imacon, phase one, leaf, janoptics) think that it is the standard - so who im i to say that it is not??? and they just line-up with this standard... all of them... so it is FACT.... all term of "full frame" belongs to film - that is it.... the same i can say about the talks about leica m8... leica says it is impossible or something like this (becasue of the lenses etc) ... well - im photographer, not engeeneer - they know better what possible (or what possible at corrent state of development in technology)... they put a fact in front of me... my choice is wether to go with it or not.. not wether to acapt it as true or not... it is true without my acaptanes too - it is fact... about hasselblad closed system.... again - even from my neutral point i can understand the discomfort the users can have... and indeed i have friends who use this system (digital h)... i will ask them about this discomfort... but one thing is important... strategically - i think it is a wise move... why... cause anyway most of the people use and prefer to be within a system... if u like the camera u will buy it... the lenses are good, the camera is good, the digi back is good... so whats the problem. i dont like this camera - this is why i will not buy it - not becasue it is closed or open.... besides - one question..... if u use hasselblad - what??? did u ever had an open system when u were using film?????????? what is it all about.... can i attach rollei film holder to hassy 501... can i use 80 rollei lens on hassy ????? dont go mistake - the systems werre always closed in "film / full frame days" - so what the noise about it now. say thanks to rollei (franke&heideke) that they brought something really open and novel, if u look for something "not closed".... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted October 1, 2006 Posted October 1, 2006 Hi vic vic, Take a look here leica, sinar, rollei (franke&heideke), janoptics ... now bundeled :-)). I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
rosuna Posted October 1, 2006 Share #22 Posted October 1, 2006 The presentation of the Hy6 has been a marketing disaster. Rollei is nothing in the actual market. They must to explain what are the strong points of this new "open" platform and what are the compromises assumed with potential clients. What are you offering, why it is a good offer, what problems and demands of clients are you serving better, what are the new possibilities that this system brings and competitors cannot offer, how strong is the involvement of the different companies (and their future plans...). The Hy6 present more unknowns than responses at this moment. To make things worse, Leica buys Sinar to Jenoptik. Why they did it? What is the role of Leica and Jenoptik in the MF market? Leaf camera was a last minute idea. It was not planned a Leaf clon of the Rollei camera. This is not a open and public standard, like the 4/3 system is. This is a de facto semi-open platform based on internal (secret) agreements among several companies. We don't know the terms of those agreements. Rollei developed the camera based on the 6000 series, but we don't know if Sinar participated in it. We don't know who paid the bills. We don't know who is the owner of the patents. We don't know if Phase One will be invited or blocked. We know nothing about the "openess" of this "system". We don't know if Schneider and Zeiss are involved in the project or not, and if Leica will offer lenses or not (Sinar was involved in it before Leica purchased them... What is Leica thinking about the Hy6? Is it a mere collateral "accident" of the puchase?)... What is the distribution and support model planned for this camera? Hasselblad has a stronger position in the MF market, only challenged by Canon (from "outside"). Mamiya is in trouble. Pentax will try. They will offer "closed" MF solutions. Say bye-bye to the other contenders (digital backs manufacturers like Sinar, Leaf, Phase One...). So... there is an opportunity for a new contender that offers a better solution than Hasselblad (more open, more friendly to photographers) and good (modern, full of features) enough to fight against Canon. Leaf (owned by Kodak), Phase One, Sinar (owned by Leica), Rollei... should establish a new standard, open to all, under clear and public specifications, with a clear commitment from expressely involved companies, and make public all the information in a ordered and clear form. The 4/3 consortium is an acceptable model for one such "open platform". This new "open" and well defined standard is a must, absolutely. If these companies try to go to war separated, I give them a few months of life... Things are changing, competition is stronger and the camera manufacturers are closing their cameras and providing "in house" digital solutions... it is clear to me what will happen... This is not a question of engineering, but marketing... simple and pure market strategy. I wish and hope these German companies wake up... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
vic vic Posted October 1, 2006 Author Share #23 Posted October 1, 2006 rouben - hi... this is exactly what i say too... it seems a great strategic move by hasselblad... at least from what i can see now.... closed system... keep your people in your system.. im sure hasselblad can offer all the needed solutions... for the new hasselblad camera users.... if u want bigger camera than hasselbald - i mean view camera - no problems... u can get linhof or other camera and attach your fantastic hassy/imacon back to it and do what u want to with it. buy some rodestock or schneider view camra lenses that are optimized for digi backs... u cannot go better with digital. so the system is not so closed indeed. nothing wrong with any part in the system (lens, camera and amazing digi back they have). u want samll camra at hand from time to time... system has nothing to do here with hasselblad... buy some small digi - the same 3/4 if u want or a pocket camera...:-))))))) serious photographer who wants and needs the hassy is in very goodposition anyway.... about that new hy6.... well - u may noticed in my soments that personally im a bit exited about that camera - true.... marketing... well - u maybe rite... a better marketing could be done.. but i cannot speack about it at the moment - i have not been in photokina, and the info at the moment is naturally not avaliable.. wait and see, if a month or two after photokina the marketing level is the same as now, then i will agree with u - disaster marketing :-))) but now, it is ok since it is only concpet presentation, even if a better job could be made there too. about the principle of hy6... well - to me it is simple... rollei 6008 camera in new form and modernized.. u use the lenses from rollei or new ones tat will be (from janoptics as announced? )... now, belive me those lenses are very expenssive so it is a really good thing that it is the same mount and functionality :-))))) and ya.... francke&heidecke makes it.... u can buy it with leaf name on it, with sinar name or with rolleiflex - who cares... choose the digi back u want to go with. dont worry - at least in the case of kodak (and probably about phase1 and junoptics too) those backs will go on and on lined in their abilities.. if one will make progress on big step the other will join very soon and line up again... at the moment - they are all amazing - while leaf is ahead of all i think, but not that one should be bothered about it too much - they are simply great by now (with what technology can offer). so ya.. the system is opened in terms of "choose the back u want - i mean the brand)... by the way - the brands (i think all of them, but surely i can say that leaf ) has upgrade programs - so nothing to worry about :-))))))) the market for such thing is there - open market.. it is not a huge market like canon has - sure, but it is still big market.. comercial photographers - fashion - especially. here too - since u have the back already wether it is hassy or leaf or what ever - u can add another camera too for different aplications - like alpa for example, or again - the view cameras... so i dont need marketing here... most users wil not need marketing... personally for me more important is the comunication with the camerra.. with haselblad h it was not the best communication... with hy6... well, i have not touched this camera yet, but if u feel it like the rollei 608, or even better (???) - than great :-))))))) but true... when u get this camera - here too - u r closed system - rollei lenses, your leaf back (or janoptics if u buy that one) etc... nothing wrong with what hasselblad made.. rollei will drive u into it (with the brand u get) just like hasselblad wants to do it with u... and those options that are open with rollei (and its clons) are open with hasselblad too (attaching the back to wide angle cameras or view cmaeras). the only differance is that before u buy it... u have an option to get your hy6 in one of the offered options (brands of digi back)... but after that u buy it - the game of open system is over and u live with it just like the hassy friends live with it :-))))))))))) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
vic vic Posted October 1, 2006 Author Share #24 Posted October 1, 2006 ah - sorry - forgot to attach th link: here u can see a bit of the hy6 in video from photokina: i will make later somemore serchings on internet-- if anybody finds some more.. please attach a link :-))))))) http://www.luminous-landscape.com/photokina/medium-format-report.shtml Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
graham_mitchell Posted October 2, 2006 Share #25 Posted October 2, 2006 thats rite too pete....a new lens from hassleblad (the 28mm full frame as they call it). this is another indication that medium format digital is going through new standartization. the 48x36 frame of digital sensor is a new standard in medium... That's going a bit far. Hasselblad has used the term 'full frame' for this one camera, and it is marketing nonsense. The sensor is the same size as we have used for years. and ya... the digi-backs give already a very impressive performance either the 22mix or surely the 75mpix. leaf The Aptus 75 is 'only' 33 megapixel, not 75 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rosuna Posted October 2, 2006 Share #26 Posted October 2, 2006 The Hy6 platform is not an open platform meaning that a camera has an "open" mount (to every lens manufacturer) and "open" back connections (to any digital back manufacturer). I think Rollei sells the camera to digital backs manufacturers, and they adapt the body to their backs. The Leaf cameras only work with Leaf backs... This implies that we will have many "mini-Hasselblads": Leaf camera and Leaf back; Sinar camera and Sinar back; Rollei camera and Rollei back... This would be nonsense! Perhaps Hasselblad can do it, but Rollei/Sinar/Leaf don't. The Hy6 platform must be based on a set of public specifications open to everyone, lens manufacturers and back manufacturers. I should be possible to use a Phase One back on a Leaf-branded camera, or a Leaf back on a Sinar camera, and any lens on any camera. I hope to see this platform well-defined and really open. Potential buyers will not accept tricks. People looking for a closed platform will have Hasselblads, Mamiyas, Pentaxes... and Canons... Rollei, Sinar and Leaf cannot win in that game. They have the opportunity to offer something different. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rosuna Posted October 2, 2006 Share #27 Posted October 2, 2006 Advertisement (gone after registration) Maybe we have some answers to our questions soon. A really open platform must be based on open-to-all specifications. The closed model of Hasselblad, Pentax and Mamiya can work for them. I only points to the possibility of a different offer for those who want to or like to have choices: the lens, the body and the back. Any combination should be possible: Schneider lens/Rollei body/Sinar back; or Zeiss lens/Leaf body/Phase One back. The Hy6 is an unique opportunity for a real open platform for MF, but the proponents have not marketed the Hy6 in this way at Photokina. I think people will prefer Hasselblad, Mamiya or Pentax to all-in-one Leaf or Sinar, small brands which will not resist the pressure in the long run if they play separately (I am not sure about Mamiya or Pentax either). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
vic vic Posted October 2, 2006 Author Share #28 Posted October 2, 2006 hi graham - whats up man...:-)) look, of course i wouold like that things will be in my comfort and full frame would be 6x6 or at least the 6x45... sure... but we have to realize that we are in new field here... and hasselblad makes its marketing... 1. telling that this is what is gonna be de-facto...2.putting it to counsciusness in their marketing.... now, ive been talking with a friend who is closly related to the manufacturing issues (he is computer ingeener in this field).... man - he started to explain me those issue... of course at some point i lost him and couldnot follow, but i clearly understand that there is some balance in this selection and "standartization"... the chalange of full frame is simply unproportional to the outcome... at this stage.. it is simply nonesenses to make it work.... besides - there are lenses issues... in given 48x36 format u use the center portion of the lenses... that is great (especially for new generation lenses that can fit it perfectly). but even with new lenses - the chalange of designing new lenses for full format digital is crazy... simply crazy... even for schneider who has more flexibility becasue of the different reqiurments from lenses (large format lenses if we ignore the issue of very big circle for camera movements)... leica talks in the same manner about those issues... so ya, we are the photographers, and it supposed to serve us, but this is also technology and we also have to adjust ourselves.. including by understanding that there is new format standard in digital medium format and stop relating to te traditional formats... also - think how much it would cost - both the digi back and the lenses optimized for it :-)))) would photographers still buy it.. it is difficult enough to make a dicission to go for the way it is now becasue of the crazy prices :-))))))) technology requirments... now lets take an example of great photographer called - lotte jacobi... in gernany after the world war 1. a really great photographer tat is not very well known i think.... one of her ideas was to photograph in theaters that she loved so much... now u can imagine that in those days it was impossible to capture the moment... well - she asked a very good company that days to make for here a special mobile camera with a new superfast lens ... that was ernolux with lens of f1.8... of course 9x12cm format (4x5").... she made nice pictures those days... amazing importance... later it was andre kerteszh who asked from leica (the new strange kid with tiny camera) to make fast lenses for his night photography... now guess guess what.... today u have no ernolux or anything like that. linhof master technika comes the closest to it but it is no more functions the same goals as ernolux... but today u have leica with summiluxes and noctilux :-)))) and beleive me - the pictures look of higher quality than those great photos made by lotte jacobi. (remember - the 9x12 was there standard "full frame" as we talk now :-))))))))) ha - ya, sure - aptus&emotions are 33 of course.. only the names are 75 indenticating their performances.. :-))))))))) rouben... what exactly do u suggest - in practice.. how to open it... ??????? u have fantastic lenses on it - and that doesnt matter under which brand u will buy the hy6... u have choices of brands... ya.. from the moment u choose the brand the game is over for u (at least in terms for back selections), but why should i run after different backs.. im sure they will be line-up most of the time... who will buy it - well... since it is aptus too, i will have the oportunity to see it here in kodak (here in israel) very very soon... if im gonna like the camera and gonna be attached (something that doesnt happened with hassy although it is amazing) then i have one big step close to owning it... (the only thing left to decide is wether i finally go to digital with medium format works).... if i dont like the handeling of the camera (unlikly for what it seems me now after getting some more info with the video i have linked... but who knows?? ).. so if i dont like it than there is still the rollei 6008 to attach to it the digi back wich is the same as on the hy6 as far as i understand... in about a week or so, or at least after the (week) holidays here in israel i will be much smarter about it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
photoin10sity Posted October 2, 2006 Share #29 Posted October 2, 2006 I'm trying to catch my breath now. What awesome news! Hooray for Leica! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
KevinA Posted October 2, 2006 Share #30 Posted October 2, 2006 Thank goodness Fuji/Hasselblad is not the only MF player, Mamiya have stumbled a touch, I was hoping for a 6008 digital product, at least they use proper lenses. This looks promising, I hope it happens. I wonder where it leaves Phaseone as each maker intergrates their back with their body, Leaf also are starting to look a bit stranded. I still would like to see a high res square back for 500cm's that keeps wides wide. Kevin. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
vic vic Posted October 3, 2006 Author Share #31 Posted October 3, 2006 hi kalvin... u do have the squere 16mpix hasselbald back.. well if 16 is enough for your needs... there are also 22 and 39 for hassy v cameras, but true - they are not squeres... i dopubt that at the near future such a back will be introduced... in digital backs , once u buy it, u need some versatility... in fact - for most of the people who buy the high res backs.. they prefer to work (and to crop) with the 3:4. but u know.. if there will be demands on wider aspect or squire - then maybe it wil be offered. personally i also would like the back will be different - 2:3, but this is not what i can get now.. so it doesnt really bothers me. the main concidiration with the native aspect ration is the croping factors... so i think that 2:3 is better, cause u loose much less if u make wider photos... but again.. maybe with demand it will be changed, or more options will be added... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
john_f Posted October 8, 2006 Share #32 Posted October 8, 2006 FYI, BJP has an excellent online article on the business deals between Leica, Sinar, Jenoptik, Rollei (Franke & Heidecke) and Leaf (and possibly Mamiya): British Journal of Photography - New cameras, new owners. If Leica is ever asked to contribute "medium-format" lenses for these cameras, it would be a dream come true for many. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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