Filters seem detrimental to lens/film result

[lincoln_m]

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Hi,

I'm beginning to find that all the filters I have tried on my Leica lenses have a negative effect on the final image instead of any improvement.

 

UV filters: help create more flare as they add a plain glass closer to the hood enterance.

Skylight 81A: seems to add noticable pink cast which is not good on Velvia.

81C warm up: Far too pink even during the middle of the day when colour temp is highest

Polariser (Kenco): I'm surprised that I can't see a dramatic effect even with Velvia 50 and paying careful attention to matching the hotshoe finder scale with the polariser on the lens. If anything the polariser flattened the contrast. I need to do some proper tests to confirm any differences.

 

I conclude that the Leica lenses <£2000 and their coating are so good that adding any filter in front is just detrimental. If you are in a sandstorm then a uv filter for protection is probably a good idea but any other time we should remove the filter and let our expensive Leica optics do their job.

 

This is my opinion after trying the above filters. At least I have only bought a few filters because my lenses are E39 thread 35f2asph, 50f2, 50f2.8 so I have not doubled up on different sizes.

 

For Black and White I have a Medium Yellow filter which reduces 2 stops. What is the forums experience with Yellow filter and B/W film. Is it worth the 2 stop reduction? Can the higher contrast clouds be achieved in other ways, darkroom or photoshop? Is the extra speed or depth of field actually worth more than the possible effects of the filter?

 

Infra Red filter deep red: Is this needed for Infra Red film to get the best effects? With Rangefinders we have the benefit of not looking through the lens so we can block out most of the visible light. Will the M's exposure meter be correct for Infra Red photography? This may be the only case where a filter is needed. Do you have any experience with this?

 

Regards, Lincoln

[Findus]

Lincoln, absolutely correct, I find that too.

I guess adding a pice of glass doesn't help the optical quality of a 1500€ much.

 

The only time I use a filter is around this time where I'm shooting the Octoberfest in Munich, not to gain an special or extra effect but to save my front lens from pieces of chicken sticking to it at the end of the day .... or worse.

 

I do quit a bit of B&W there somtimes you do need a filter to increase the quality, but very rarely that I use one. A lot can be done in the wet development process.

[Guest lll]

May be, your polarising filter is of poor quality. I once bougt one in the UK from Jessops, which is very dissapoining. It is rather blueish than neutral and even the polarizing effect is not that good as I am accustomed by filters from Leitz / Leica, Heliopan and B+W/ Schneider. So perhaps the Kenko plays in the same class :-(

 

On the other hand side you are right: it´s even my point of view that you should use filters as less as possible. BUT: you can´t simulate the effects of a polarizing filter and in an analogue b/W-process you can´t reach the effects of an yellow or orange filter without using it while shooting (I don´t talk about the possibilities of Photoshop!) If you really need / want the effect you have to tolerate the sideeffects. For your final result the picture effect perhaps will be much more important than the small loss of resolution.

Photographing always a playing with compromises. Speed and freedom to move against the use of tripod, flash against grainy high speed films, UV-filter as a lens protection against better lens performance even with some cleaning traces, etc. etc. The compromises are innumerable.

 

There is no single "Right answer". But you will find a lot of outstanding pictures with small technical imperfections.

 

Regards Friedhelm

[albertwang]

Of course, CHEAP filters are going to destroy your image.

 

Use B and W or Heliopan filters as both are flattened by special process that's awesome.

 

Of course Hoya is a budget filter so occasionally I grab that one for cheapo lenses.

[stunsworth]

Hi Lincoln, I only use filters when shooting b&w and then it's a yellow for 90% of the time. It helps darken the sky and as you say hightens the contrast between the sky and clouds. Be aware that red filters can have a terrible effect on skin towns, so I'd try to avoid them if there are people in the shots - unless you want them to look anaemic that is.

 

I currently use a Photoshop plugin fror converting digital colour to b&w and this allows the simulation of various filters. I find that a blue filter can sometimes provide a pleasing effect - a filter I never considered using with film.

 

I'd also concur that a filter would make sense if shooting in a hostile environment - expecially if there's lots of sand flying around.

 

As always with things optical, you get what you pay for, all my filters are b+w.

[Findus]

Theres actually a nice article on the use of filters in B&W photogrpahy in the last edition of Blac and White photograhy

[Findus]

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.... yellow for B&W is usefull, but it tends to ncrease the ugly part of grain at larger formats. Doing 20x30 is good ... a well like mentioned before there is no correct answer, and it's allways a pay-of one side or the other

[igel]

Dear Lincoln, if you choose multicoated filters produced by the leading manufacturers mentioned above, you will not see any noticable effect or decreasing your image quality. The only event, when I remove the filters are at night shots, when very high bright light sources are in contrast to dark background or blue sky. Even with the very best lenses and high quality filters your may get trouble with flares and ghost mirror reflexes.

At all other times its worth to me to protect my front lenses well.

 

Regarding the Pol Filter. Try another brand and you will see better effects.

 

Some influence to the pictures i.e. controlling the contrast between white/ blue or the transformation into reasonable greyscale tones, you can only manage during the exposure to film, as long were taking about analog technologies. What's not in the negative or slide, you can't get out in the best masterprint.

 

For IR, test your film and developer combination closely by trials on your own. All data you will find in the literature are only a rough idea.

 

best regards and good luck andy

[wizard]

Hi,

I'm beginning to find that all the filters I have tried on my Leica lenses have a negative effect on the final image instead of any improvement.

 

Lincoln, you are mentioning a negative effect on the final image when using a filter. I am curious, have you ever cross-checked under exactly the same conditions (e.g. by taking one shot with filter and another one of the same subject without the filter) whether it actually is the filter that's decreasing image quality, or is just that you THINK the filter has a negative effect. I am asking this as I have found, at least in some situations, that where I thought a filter was to be blamed for unwanted reflections in the final image, it was in fact the lens itself that had produced those unwanted reflections (I only discovered this based on a second shot I had taken without the filter).

 

As pointed out above by others, it is advisable to use only filters of the highest quality, such as Heliopan's SHPMC coated series or B+W's MRC coated series. Hoya's Pro1 series (I believe that's how they are called) are good, too. With those kind of filters I have almost never noticed a negative effect on lens performance, the exception being night shots with bright light sources.

 

Re yellow filter for B&W, 2stops is quite a strong filter, the one I am using requires doubling the exposure time, which translates into just one stop, and I regularly use that one when shooting B&W.

 

Regards, Andy

[frc]

Ghost images with lightsources in the frame at night using the lux 35 asph, severe flare with the tri elmar in backlit conditions. On both I have removed the uv filters. ( Leica and B&W )

Te effects are now gone and I think therefor that this is a filterproblem.

This problem has on both lenses been mentioned in various articles, and is no myth.

Cron 50 latest version, elmarit 90, lux 75 and elmarit 21 asph all work fine with filter.

I suppose experimentation and reading about other users experiences is how to discover what works and what doesn't.

[xjr]

Do not agree...£1000-£2000 lenses require protection to the front element from dust,water and other unwarranted items including finger smudging. Buy B+W filters and not the cheap stuff. I have not notice any problems...yet.For black&white I use the 'deep' yellow filter more akin to orange which appears ideal for UK. Also use a deep red 55mm for effective shots with the 24mm.

I find that Leica M lenses need no polariser.....any views on this ?

[gberger]

I find that Leica M lenses need no polariser.....any views on this ?

 

I use a polarizer to cut glare on reflective surfaces and to enhance the colors of flowers and plants. Every now and then, a polarizer helps deepen the sky; however, this can clearly be overused - - and often is!

 

George (The Old Fud)

[earleygallery]

Used correctly, I really doubt anyone can tell the difference between a photo taken with a filter and one without - apart from the effect of the filter that is.

 

Pola filters are used for avoiding reflections/glare on reflective surfaces, not just for a dark blue sky - a bare Leica lens cannot replicate that effect.

 

UV/Sky filters, and even yellow for B&W shouldn't be necessary with modern coatings/emulsions.

[albertwang]

Ghost images with lightsources in the frame at night using the lux 35 asph, severe flare with the tri elmar in backlit conditions. On both I have removed the uv filters. ( Leica and B&W )

Te effects are now gone and I think therefor that this is a filterproblem.

This problem has on both lenses been mentioned in various articles, and is no myth.

Cron 50 latest version, elmarit 90, lux 75 and elmarit 21 asph all work fine with filter.

I suppose experimentation and reading about other users experiences is how to discover what works and what doesn't.

 

Hmm... what type of filters were you using?

[rob_x2004]

Leica and B&W, Albert.

[earleygallery]

Ghost images with night time photography is a common problem, simply a case of the light sources causing reflections bouncing back onto the filter - a physical issue rather than one of lens or filter quality. The flare you mention may be due to the same reasons.

[lincoln_m]

OK so I'll name names.

UV filters are B+W MC Resistant. Well one is the other is a B+W PRO which I think is a MC. To be honest I have not noticed much wrong with these, only possible extra flare when shooting into the light but I have also got this with no filter as the light is strong.

 

I do not use the Hoya UV which I bought for my first lens.

 

Skylight 81A is B+W

 

81C B+W The cast is far too pink and difficult to correct with more green in PS after so is actually not worth using for me now.

 

Medium Yellow B+W may be a -1stop or -2 I'd have to check.

 

Kenco Poloriser I need to make careful notes to check with and without this filter, but I have done this on the same subject and can't really tell much noticable difference. I was expecting a Velvia v Sensia difference in saturation and dark black skies. Perhaps I'm out in the middle of the day when the effect is minimal. The -2 stops is a problem some times. I will try and be more scientific with my experiments. It seems that a change of -0.5 stops on a naked lens and velvia would yield a bigger change in the image than using the polariser. Perhaps it is only useful on rare occasions.

 

The large format guys seems to use multiple filters , ND graduated, Warmup and polarisers perhaps these large format lenses are relatively poor quality/resolution when compared to our Leicas but they have the advantage of a much larger negative and lower final enlargement.

 

I'm sure all we need is an MP and 35mm F2 (or F1.4?) anything else is just surplus.

 

What does seem to work magic for little outlay are the Softrelease screw-in shutter releases.

Rapidwinder & Rapidgrip

I've been able to use shutter speeds of 1/30th and 1/15th hand held with care. This makes velvia 50 still usable at dusk and gives 1-1.5 stops more. In the UK they are selling the last of the Velvia 50 before Velvia 100DL takes it's place. With the softrelease it's like having 100asa in your camera. It is really great to use the slower shutter speeds and hear the clockwork mechanism of the MP (M7 would just be silent between curtains).

http://www.peterwalnes.com for UK sales.

 

Were there any input sre the Infrared filters and film?

Regards, Lincoln

[Confusion Circle]

A colour filter of some sort is absolutely essential for B&W, IMHO. Otherwise, the images are too flat. I use a B+W red filter with Tri-X filim rated @ 200 ISO.

 

I use a Hoya R72 IR filter or a red (25A) for my IR shooting. A filter must be used for IR or else the images just look like crappy B&W prints. I use Kodak HIE rated @ 200 ISO (400ISO on mid-summer days) with the red filter and bracket 2 stops over and under the meter reading in 1 stop increments. With the R72, I rate HIE @ 100 ISO.

Here are some pictures taken with HIE and a red filter:

Leica M6:

 

 

 

[LADP]

Used correctly, I really doubt anyone can tell the difference between a photo taken with a filter and one without - apart from the effect of the filter that is.

 

Pola filters are used for avoiding reflections/glare on reflective surfaces, not just for a dark blue sky - a bare Leica lens cannot replicate that effect.

 

UV/Sky filters, and even yellow for B&W shouldn't be necessary with modern coatings/emulsions.

 

A side benefit is that a polarizer also can be used to decrease contrast to some extent in certain circumstances. For example, if you are shooting a portrait, and it is a high contrast lighting situation where there is significant reflectivity on a person's face coming from a backlight angle, a polarizer can reduce or even negate the reflective area (or specular glare), thereby bringing the contrast of lighting on the face into a more aesthetic realm.

 

Polas can also help to saturate the colors in a given scene.

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[lincoln_m]

Fred,

Really great IR shots. Thanks for the filter numbers I'll track down the Hoyas and try some IR photography.

Regards, Lincoln