albertwang Posted September 20, 2006 Author Share #21 Posted September 20, 2006 Advertisement (gone after registration) agreed. I think this now warrants a different section. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted September 20, 2006 Posted September 20, 2006 Hi albertwang, Take a look here AP censorship :(. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
cbretteville Posted September 20, 2006 Share #22 Posted September 20, 2006 Hi Carl,I did not buy a camera because I like shiny over-engineered chrome german products to polish and cuddle every evenig. There are things outthere that ask to be scrutinized, in writing, on film, in discussion. Although bashing and accusing without fundamental evidence should not be part of the talks, I strongly approve of discussing political and social topics on this forum. Many attending here are working pro's in the PJ-field or are interrested in the subject. As for me, one of the reasons of appreciation for this forum is to be able to meet people with a common interest. Perhaps, we are facing a new devision on this forum, there should be a social/political forum. ( with a parential warning for explicit language ;-) Where on earth did you get the idea that fondeling your equipment has anything to do with my request? That is something you do in private and I couldn't care one way or the other. I have no problem with scruteny, political or otherwise. I'm still not conviced this is the right forum for political such unless it is on the basis of a photograph posted. Name calling and strongly voiced opinion on a country's foreign policy decisions IMHO does not belong here. There are people here from all over the globe and we all need to be aware of that. As far as a common interest is concerned I'm with you (whomever you may be and where ever you may live), that interest should be photography in general and Leica in particular and not whether we're on the same side of the political table. - Carl Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
frc Posted September 20, 2006 Share #23 Posted September 20, 2006 Hallo Carl' I live in a free country, The Netherlands, here one can expres oneself freely without getting in trouble with authorities. In no way do I see this as normal, look at what can happen in other countries. The start of this thread is based upon such an occurance. On any side of the political table were human rights are violated there without question scrutinizing and prosecuting should take place. Scrutinizing, yes, not accusing without evidence. I agree with you on your concern about hurting peoples feelings. This is not what we want here, or anywhere. About fondling tools, if you read well, you should have understood that I was referring to my use of the camera. In other threads you can read about how the thing gets smashed over and again during my documentary photography. Often the vanity of Leica owners is shocking. Rich people with food, shelter and everything they desire. This thread started about a photographer in trouble. The first post is mine, here I express my sympathy. Ed's words are not mine, I disapprove of his sayings. The forum is not for staightforeward politcal discussions, though this one started about photography, it happens to seemingly have provoked you in an unwanted manner. Please do not limit me in my freedom of choice on topics. Besides, politics is about doctrines: liberalism, conservatism, communism and so forth. No one has in this thread expressed any preferrence on any of these. Ed's remark to me only showes a complete lack of understanding of politics, or at least his choice of words lacks diplomacy. I to have very strong opinions about a diversity of subjects, this is not the place to display them. It's a pity people feel entitled to utter hard and confronting language. Note: my sugestion is to move the social reportage photography to a corner of its own. Nikonians and photonet already have this. On this forum such issues are all over the place. It would stop you from being confronted with the topic if you don't want to read about it. Having the topic in one place makes it easier for the moderators to check what's been expressed. Let not this become a debate without an end, we both have clearly expressed our opinions, let the thread please return to what it started with. kind regards Francis van Boxtel. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
albertwang Posted September 21, 2006 Author Share #24 Posted September 21, 2006 Frc, you are right. We Americans tend to be rather xenophobic. That's why "We Will Rock You" is an American anthem. We couldn't come up with anything else better than that shebang. (j/k) Okay, seriously we need to stick to the topic. I was talking about the rights of photogs to enter dangerous situations without any stupid bureaucracy interfering with the truth. So much for the good ole gulag we got going. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
kodaktrix Posted September 21, 2006 Share #25 Posted September 21, 2006 To my opinion - a Leica is a camera - a camera is a tool like a pen is one - neither cameras or pens can be political or social (except you give it to the poor) tools - but either cameras or pens can be used to express a personal point of view I find that political or social discussion in that forum does no harm, as long as we do not insult each other (although I myself consider this a tough task, if I read the one or other comment). To give my 2 cents to the subject: The base of any democratic law system is, that one is to be seen as innocent as long as it is not prooved otherwise. On the other hand it is a well known fact, that even in democratic systems the one or other journalist was muzzled because he insulted the powers with his work. All the best Oliver Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
albertwang Posted September 21, 2006 Author Share #26 Posted September 21, 2006 An insult is only an insult if it is perceived to be an insult. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Findus Posted September 21, 2006 Share #27 Posted September 21, 2006 Advertisement (gone after registration) Actually the worst mistake Bush ever made was accepting the presidency of the United States of America..... pitty he doesn't know that yet .... But then again he'se not the smartest/brightest of humans. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Findus Posted September 21, 2006 Share #28 Posted September 21, 2006 frc ... I agree, good posting. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ron110n Posted September 22, 2006 Share #29 Posted September 22, 2006 Cops go to jail for technicalities in arresting a fellon. Paramedics get sued for saving someones life. And on and on and on... They're all part of the game. Even PJ's are not exempted. I'm sorry to hear about the working proffesional's predicament. Proffesional means, you should know how to play the game. -Ron Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChipNovaMac Posted September 22, 2006 Share #30 Posted September 22, 2006 Sad that it has come to this, guilt by association. The issue of my government seems to be one that a PJ that has knowledge of potential harm by insurgents, enemy foe, or whatever name you want to use - has the obligation of getting those facts to our military/inteligence operations. It has been a number of years since my journalism classes; but I seem to remember that a reporter is there to record the news - not to affect the news. We are treading in to the area of ethics of those that cover the news. Do we require them to let authorities in on plans? Do we hold them accountable for actions that they record or report on; but did nothing to stop? The issue IMO in regards to this AP photographer is that our current administration has created a new set of rules/laws that fly in the face of what my country was founded upon. And flies in the face of what international law and the international community expects from a nation that espouses democracy has its hallmark. Because of these actions today, it can have a chilling effect on the news we see in the future IMO. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pxlpal2 Posted September 22, 2006 Share #31 Posted September 22, 2006 Most of the posters on this thread seem very sure of themselves;here is a question: As a hypothetical , if you were a pj in a war zone (doesn't matter which side) and in the course of your daily probing found out that a platoon of soldiers (from your own country) was to be ambushed or killed by an IED that evening, what would you do if you could either notify the military of the ambush or be quiet and report the outcome as news? What do you think the reaction would be from other soldiers around you or family members of the deceased soldiers when you cited lessons learned in a journalism school of only reporting the news, as the reason you did not prevent their deaths ? Frank M. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
albertwang Posted September 22, 2006 Author Share #32 Posted September 22, 2006 I don't agree that the PJ should be an objective person at all. In fact, a concerned PJ should be out on a limb saving lives if necessary. For me, human lives are always primary relative to that winning shot. Of course, this brings in the question of PJ's like James Nachtwey who document human suffering. We ask the question to him, "Could he have done more to alleviate the pain of the subjects he captured on film?" Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pxlpal2 Posted September 22, 2006 Share #33 Posted September 22, 2006 Albert, I know of at least 3 instances where JN save a life or helped save it, one being documented on the video of him shooting in a war zone, Bosnia I believe, where he and others got a wounded person into an ambulance while being shot at. I believe that Mr. Nachtwey has his ethics in order... Regards, FM Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
albertwang Posted September 22, 2006 Author Share #34 Posted September 22, 2006 Thanks, FM. I think that Capa did the same thing if I recall correctly. PJ ethics are fairly important to me. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
haris Posted September 22, 2006 Share #35 Posted September 22, 2006 Frank, totaly true what you said about Nachtwey. If you saw "War photographer" movie about Nachtwey, there is part in which one cameraman tells story how once in Inonesia (I think) group of people were chasing a man with machetas and like. Nachtwey followed them, and when that group got the man and starting to cutting him with machetas, Nachtwey get on his knees and begged for life of that man. He tried to save life of that man instead of taking photographs, and he did that risking his own life. Yes, I belive ethic of James Nachtwey is good and well, thank you very much... And we all remember Kevin Carter story... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pxlpal2 Posted September 22, 2006 Share #36 Posted September 22, 2006 Thanks Haris, That was one of the instances where I could not remember the exact details. After reading much of this thread, I decided to write my post above. It is my opinion that a person must consider humanity before profession. I got the feeling that others here believe differently and I am aware that young pj's are taught differently in some of the journalism schools. I think it is up to the individual to make up their mind as to how they approach their profession and to live with themselves if they choose what I perceive to be the wrong path. If the photographer mentioned originally is truly innocent, he will be set free; if he collaborated with what I perceive as my country's enemy, he should pay his tab. It is times like these where freedoms (or firefights) are won at the expense of other things, be they individual rights, freedoms, or sacrifice. Those in the military at the pointy end have many more details about what the circumstances of his capture were. I suspect that the intelligence people and military have a lot better things to do than round up, incarcerate, and watch over innocent joes off the street, even if they are holding cameras or have TV on their vest or car window. The people who are always screaming government conspiracy start sounding shrill when the lives of my countrymen or the lives of an innocent foreign population hang in the balance. Before we immediately condemn the people who are holding this photographer, why don't we try to get hard facts? Like I said before, he doesn't have to worry about some peaceful ruffians hacking his head of on a video tape. If he is innocent, he will be released and I would expect him to write a first-hand expose' of his capture and captors. Regards, Frank M. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
haris Posted September 22, 2006 Share #37 Posted September 22, 2006 Frank I will partly agree with you, and partly not ( you are not surprised I guess ) There is many examples of situations in which institutions and govenments when made mistakes don't admit and fix theire mistakes imidiatelly. And people suffer great pain, financial, and others damages. When eventually those people finally get "off the hook" theise damages are very big. Institutions and goverments are hard to admit thir wrongdoings and who can repay to those people lost time, suffered fear, in some situations physical, psychulogical pain they suffered destroyed social status and finaly financial damages before it is proven they are not guilty... Institutions and governments by default first try to cover up those situations and admit them only as last option... I am not saying in this particular case photographer is guilty or not. But, history is teaching us not to trust institutions and governments just because they say they are right... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
albertwang Posted September 22, 2006 Author Share #38 Posted September 22, 2006 The people who are always screaming government conspiracy start sounding shrill when the lives of my countrymen or the lives of an innocent foreign population hang in the balance. There is a reason why conspiracy is a constant phenom. Because governments do not have the best interests of the people at stake. In fact, government is composed of the wealthiest stakeholder who know nothing about the lives of the impoverished. Intellectualism doesn't save lives. Using abstract terminologies and verbal calisenthics [sic] do nothing except to serve the doublespeak that infects our stuffy heads these days. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pxlpal2 Posted September 22, 2006 Share #39 Posted September 22, 2006 I believe I can agree with you both. Haris, the U.S. and many other governments have proven this at one time or another. Albert, your are right as well; action saves lives - intellectual discussion usually causes harm either directly or because of procrastination (I am directing this statement towards times of conflict). This is a time of action; some are bound to be wrong. Hopefully most will be right and freedom will continue. The U.S. and Israel are the most visible proponent of the fight against terrorism currently and therefore becomes the largest targets ( Now I don't mean they are the only ones fighting or that they are the only targets; obviously terrorism has struck worldwide and many, many nations are fighting it) for those folks who dislike both countries. Both have done things that deserve derision and condemnation at one time or another . I guess my point is that neither has claimed to be the bastion of peace while sawing off a non-combatants head for the newsreels. Playing loud rock music 24 hours a day in a prisoners cell does not rise to any level of barbarity that the other side has shown and if there is a chance that a newsie has collaborated to affect the outcome of an ambush or kidnapping without doing something to stop it, I want to know about it. On the other hand, if that person has been detained and jailed for no reason or because they were going to shine light on an illegal act, I want to know of that as well. This is a tough time and it will take tough people to get through it. If a person weilding a Leica (or any camera)helps us to do so, more the better! Regards, Frank M. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
albertwang Posted September 22, 2006 Author Share #40 Posted September 22, 2006 sawing off a non-combatants head for the newsreels. Playing loud rock music 24 hours a day in a prisoners cell does not rise to any level of barbarity Actually, watch the movie "Road to Guantanamo" directed by Michael Winterbottom. I think that it may be seen otherwise! Of course playing rap music 24 hours a day would be torture for me. I need some Jacqueline du Pre once in awhile! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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