fotografr Posted September 19, 2006 Share #61 Posted September 19, 2006 Advertisement (gone after registration) It's troubling that people are still taking Erwin's comments seriously. There is no appreciable shutter lag with the M8 at all, as I wrote in my review. I'd prefer to take questions on another thread (the one Imants started). The Puts threads should die out. Stop to consider, would Leica risk it's future on a camera with shutter lag problems and poor file quality? That's good enough for me, also. But I sure wish I could look at some actual files from the M8. I just can't wait, and that will be the ultimate test! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted September 19, 2006 Posted September 19, 2006 Hi fotografr, Take a look here Sean Reid's positive/ constructive review. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
Guest guy_mancuso Posted September 19, 2006 Share #62 Posted September 19, 2006 I have not read Seans update but i suggested this to him and the board also was in shooting mode with half pressed shutter , you could hit the left arrow and get the ISO and use the dial yo go up or down. Now on the EV mode hit the right arrow and use the dial to go up and down. What this does is keep your eye in the finder and your right thumb doing the work , nothing has to move your thumb is there anyway. Now you could still use the protect button with your left thumb to actually confirnm the setting if they wanted to. This keeps all buttons the same and no need to do any hardware change which they won't do anyway but it is all firmware. This is really not a hard fix , just need a couple engineers to recode the software. Okay easy from my seat. LOL Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
roberth Posted September 19, 2006 Share #63 Posted September 19, 2006 I am personally very much looking towards using the M8. I am lucky enough to have a DMR and use it quite a lot but what I do find annoying is the sheer size and weight of the camera, that coupled with mirror slap make any candid work a trifle difficult. One of my favourite film cameras is a Minolta CLE along with its three little lenses, it is great for nearly every type of shooting I do, even landscape although using an ND grad filter never seems to work as I cannot see what the lens sees. With an M8 this will still be the case but I will be able to see the image I have taken right then and there and readjust the ND grad. Or just do it in photoshop after exposing 2 shots a few stops apart. Now if the image quality is as good as the DMR I really do not see why I even need the DMR anymore. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
manolo Posted September 19, 2006 Share #64 Posted September 19, 2006 A live view (via an LCD or electronic finder) requires a sensor that is able to provide a constant video feed (without overheating, etc.) As is the case in most DSLRs, the Leica's sensor was not designed for that functionality. Cheers, Sean Thank you. I have never used a range-finder and I did learned some about how the range-finder works in your review. One more question: do you think they should have included these live view option in the M8? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sean_reid Posted September 19, 2006 Share #65 Posted September 19, 2006 Well, I've been playing with my D2 and setting it up so that the 4 arrow buttons provide direct access to ISO, WB, Picture Size and Quality. There's already a separate EV button. It's true that you have to press the function button first to gain access to the 4 arrow buttons, but that's only because the self timer is activated from them as well which is not the case with the M8. I stand by what I said earler. Change the function of the protect button to EV+/- and allow 4 functions from the SET menu to be accessed directly from the arrow buttons, including "Protect". Otherwise, they run the risk of the D2 being better to use than the M8... Hi Mark, I agree that the controls should be tweaked but I don't think I'd go so far as to say that the D2 is better to use than the M8. It's a matter of preference, of course, but there's a lot that's right about the M8. Cheers, Sean Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sean_reid Posted September 19, 2006 Share #66 Posted September 19, 2006 Thank you. I have never used a range-finder and I did learned some about how the range-finder works in your review. One more question: do you think they should have included these live view option in the M8? A rangefinder is a wonderful type of camera and if you get a chance to try one, I'd recommend it. A live-view LCD involves some compromises that I don't think Leica would want to make with the M8. The experience of seeing the subject through a Leica window and making decisions based on that view is central to what makes these cameras special. Cheers, Sean Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
manolo Posted September 20, 2006 Share #67 Posted September 20, 2006 Advertisement (gone after registration) So I think I got my answer: You would have to compromise image quality Thank you again and: cheers Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rvaubel Posted September 20, 2006 Share #68 Posted September 20, 2006 A rangefinder is a wonderful type of camera and if you get a chance to try one, I'd recommend it. A live-view LCD involves some compromises that I don't think Leica would want to make with the M8. The experience of seeing the subject through a Leica window and making decisions based on that view is central to what makes these cameras special. Cheers, Sean But thats not the real reason they didn't include live view. The larger sensors are incompatible with live view. Any camera with live view is based on a video sensor. Thats also why large sensor based DSLRs don't have a movie mode. The truth be finally told;) Sean, let me express my gratitude that someone is trying to stay focused on the quality of the camera. Even with some minor areas of improvement, the M8 looks to be at least equal to the 5D in many respects and better in some. The real fun will be squeezing out all the quality possible from the M8 RAW file. Here are my reasons for optimism. *No AA filter to soften the image. That leaves the files as clean as we can hope for. Dealing with moire (when you need to) in software is preferable to muddying up every shot with a low pass filter. It is also being reported that Kodak reduced the number of air-glass elements to a minimine. Can you comment on your findings in that regard? *The laterally displaced microlensing design to reduce vignetting will undoubtable provide us all with countless hours of second guessing Kodak/Leicas design decisions. This is a new idea that is particullarly useful for non retrofocus lenses. I can hardly wait for your reports. *The Leica optics advantage should be a fun issue. I'm pretty sure that pixel width resolution could be possible, notwithstanding P*ts' take. I know even with my RD1 that excellent prime glass is worth about a 20% increase in effective megapixal resolution. *Sharpness algorithms are another area where the Leica software implementation vs 3rd party stuff will provide us with many hours of speculation for improvements. *Dynamic Range is reported to be of true 12 bit level, surpassing the DMR and others in performance. I'm talking real 12 bit, not the 16 interpolated file reported by others.. These, and many more issues will be fun to talk about. Hurry Rex Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sean_reid Posted September 20, 2006 Share #69 Posted September 20, 2006 But thats not the real reason they didn't include live view. The larger sensors are incompatible with live view. Any camera with live view is based on a video sensor. Thats also why large sensor based DSLRs don't have a movie mode. The truth be finally told;) Sean, let me express my gratitude that someone is trying to stay focused on the quality of the camera. Even with some minor areas of improvement, the M8 looks to be at least equal to the 5D in many respects and better in some. The real fun will be squeezing out all the quality possible from the M8 RAW file. Here are my reasons for optimism. *No AA filter to soften the image. That leaves the files as clean as we can hope for. Dealing with moire (when you need to) in software is preferable to muddying up every shot with a low pass filter. It is also being reported that Kodak reduced the number of air-glass elements to a minimine. Can you comment on your findings in that regard? *The laterally displaced microlensing design to reduce vignetting will undoubtable provide us all with countless hours of second guessing Kodak/Leicas design decisions. This is a new idea that is particullarly useful for non retrofocus lenses. I can hardly wait for your reports. *The Leica optics advantage should be a fun issue. I'm pretty sure that pixel width resolution could be possible, notwithstanding P*ts' take. I know even with my RD1 that excellent prime glass is worth about a 20% increase in effective megapixal resolution. *Sharpness algorithms are another area where the Leica software implementation vs 3rd party stuff will provide us with many hours of speculation for improvements. *Dynamic Range is reported to be of true 12 bit level, surpassing the DMR and others in performance. I'm talking real 12 bit, not the 16 interpolated file reported by others.. These, and many more issues will be fun to talk about. Hurry Rex Hi Rex, Not all of the live-view cameras are based on a video sensor, for example the Sony R1 uses a special APS-C sensor that I do not believe is shared with any video device. In fact the R1 cannot capture video even though it offers live view. I doubt that Leica even considered live-view for the M8 because it would not have been in keeping with the traditional nature of the camera. An M camera is normally held to the eye, not out in front of the face. That said, I can see why some might want that feature from the M8 even though it doesn't interest me at all. It's technologically possible to do it, as Sony has shown, but probably not without compromises (heat being the largest challenge). BTW, my review of the R1 will be done soon. As to your second comment, you're welcome. I try to be balanced but it's human nature, broadly, to look for faults and we wouldn't want to lose sight of how good this camera really is. Cheers, Sean Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sean_reid Posted September 20, 2006 Share #70 Posted September 20, 2006 I have not read Seans update but i suggested this to him and the board also was in shooting mode with half pressed shutter , you could hit the left arrow and get the ISO and use the dial yo go up or down. Now on the EV mode hit the right arrow and use the dial to go up and down. What this does is keep your eye in the finder and your right thumb doing the work , nothing has to move your thumb is there anyway. Now you could still use the protect button with your left thumb to actually confirnm the setting if they wanted to. This keeps all buttons the same and no need to do any hardware change which they won't do anyway but it is all firmware. This is really not a hard fix , just need a couple engineers to recode the software. Okay easy from my seat. LOL Hi Guy, My version of this is somewhat similar (although the shutter wouldn't be pressed at all until the settings needed to be locked in). In the scenario you just described, how are you thinking the photographer would see the EV or ISO setting selected? The finder won't tell him or her that, unfortunately. Even by improving the programming, a photographer will still need to take his or her eye away from the finder to glance at the LCD for these settings. I would just like to see the process be as simple/fast as possible so as to minimize the time spent with the eye away from the finder. As you mentioned, hardware changes aren't really possible at this point but firmware changes are. Take a look at the revised article and see what you think of the ideas there. Cheers, Sean Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mitchell Posted September 20, 2006 Share #71 Posted September 20, 2006 Sean, Just read your letter to Leica on your M8 reveiw. Excellent. That, or something like it would cover it, and make a big difference in shooting. Without easy fast Exp. Comp., Auto Exposure will often be useless leaving one with Manual. Not the end of the world, but slower, harder to meter a moving subject. With the DMR, I quite often use Exp. Comp. Nice system. Nothing wrong with the meter, but often the most interesting photos have the most exposure challenges. Best, Mitchell Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mitchell Posted September 20, 2006 Share #72 Posted September 20, 2006 Yes, unlike the R9/DMR, we'll have to look outside the viewfinder to confirm any changes. The triangle dot triangle system in the M viewfinder is really elegant, and effective. I can see why they kept it and how upset many film M users would be not finding it in the M8. Unfortunately, it doesn't communicate all the info that the DMR viewfinder does effectively, and without being distracting. I think this is one place where Leica paid more attention to tradition than usability. I can live with it, but I hope very much they make the changes suggested by Sean. Mitchell PS: I hope someday Leica makes a throughly modern M. A break in tradition like the R 8/9, but not a change in philosophy, or simplicity. This is not a critism of the M8. For many things, I think it will prove to be the best camera made. I just think there's a better one out there...waterproof... fit your hand...some things none of us have thought of... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
marknorton Posted September 20, 2006 Share #73 Posted September 20, 2006 I agree that the controls should be tweaked but I don't think I'd go so far as to say that the D2 is better to use than the M8. No, I meant only as far as using the additional hot buttons is concerned. With my D2 setup as it is: To Change the ISO: Function, Up Arrow, Up/Down Arrow * N, Shutter Release To Change the EV EV, Left/Right Arrow*N, Shutter Release To Change the WB Function, Down Arrow, Up/Down Arrow*N, Shutter Release ... and so on (*N meaning zero, one or more depressions or thumb wheel clicks depending on where you are in the menu and where you want to go). The current sequence in the M8 is, as I understand it: SET, Up/Down Arrow*N, SET, Up/Down Arrow*N, SET which could be replaced by Up Arrow, Up/Down Arrow*N, Shutter Release It would also be possible to use the numeric capability of the viewfinder display to display the new ISO or EV selection while you are adjusting the setting, returning to the exposure meter/AE shutter speed when you press the shutter release to exit. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
harmsr Posted September 20, 2006 Share #74 Posted September 20, 2006 Just my $.02 from shooting the D200 as my digital camera and only thinking about the functions which would carry over to rangefinder, single metering mode, and manual focus: WB is not needed as a quick adjustment as it can be adjusted in RAW processing. Quality is normally set to RAW for me and never changed. All of the NR, saturation, sharpening, etc... is basically turned off. Once again RAW processing. EV is important and I want immediate quick access. ISO is also very important and I want immediate quick access. If I had quick access to EV & ISO through one button press and turning a dial, I would be set. Best, Ray Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
marknorton Posted September 20, 2006 Share #75 Posted September 20, 2006 I agree these are the two most important and on both the M7 and the R-D1, both are immediately viewable and can be set on a dial, in the case of the R-D1, independently of the menu system. Whether you can read the print on the R-D1 dial is another matter. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guy_mancuso Posted September 20, 2006 Share #76 Posted September 20, 2006 sean i read the updated review and that sounds good also. if i read it correctly you are offering two options there of saying combine it. The WB is not that critical to have on on our speed buttons but it is important or jpeg guys in changing conditions. Interesting you used the up /down arrows and i mention the dial. personally i think the dial maybe faster but either one is good. Now you did mention how are you going to see this without taking your eye off. for ISO i think the little round window is okay , and ISO maybe the least one out of the 2 as ipmortant and also not sure i would not want to have a confirmed switch of ISO without seeing it first. that maybe something that is less eye finder dependant so adjusting and looking at the LCD circle shoul be okay. Now the EV is different you must see the movement of that in the finder . So use the manual control strip to go up or down Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rvaubel Posted September 20, 2006 Share #77 Posted September 20, 2006 I agree these are the two most important and on both the M7 and the R-D1, both are immediately viewable and can be set on a dial, in the case of the R-D1, independently of the menu system. Whether you can read the print on the R-D1 dial is another matter. Mark/Sean I can't read the ISO or EV dial either. I do it by feel, count the clicks. It works just fine. One of the reasons I am keeping the RD1 is, I will bet their will never be a more ergometrically designed digital camera. That "Captain Nemo" retro stepper motor dial, is priceless. If you shoot RAW the only dial you have to read is the remaining exposure needle, and the logrithmic readout is perfect. The amount of thought that went into this camera is amazing. I would love to have drinks with the people that designed it. To bad, such a good idea was so pitifully squandered. The M8 will be a better camera in many ways (reliability please). but I'm keeping my little Cinderella. Rex Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sean_reid Posted September 20, 2006 Share #78 Posted September 20, 2006 Mark/Sean I can't read the ISO or EV dial either. I do it by feel, count the clicks. It works just fine. One of the reasons I am keeping the RD1 is, I will bet their will never be a more ergometrically designed digital camera. That "Captain Nemo" retro stepper motor dial, is priceless. If you shoot RAW the only dial you have to read is the remaining exposure needle, and the logrithmic readout is perfect. The amount of thought that went into this camera is amazing. I would love to have drinks with the people that designed it. To bad, such a good idea was so pitifully squandered. The M8 will be a better camera in many ways (reliability please). but I'm keeping my little Cinderella. Rex Hi Rex, I agree that the R-D1 has one of the best ergonomic designs ever used for a digital camera. I also have little trouble reading the ISO dial and and no trouble reading the EV markings. Cheers, Sean Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sean_reid Posted September 20, 2006 Share #79 Posted September 20, 2006 sean i read the updated review and that sounds good also. if i read it correctly you are offering two options there of saying combine it. The WB is not that critical to have on on our speed buttons but it is important or jpeg guys in changing conditions. Interesting you used the up /down arrows and i mention the dial. personally i think the dial maybe faster but either one is good. Now you did mention how are you going to see this without taking your eye off. for ISO i think the little round window is okay , and ISO maybe the least one out of the 2 as ipmortant and also not sure i would not want to have a confirmed switch of ISO without seeing it first. that maybe something that is less eye finder dependant so adjusting and looking at the LCD circle shoul be okay. Now the EV is different you must see the movement of that in the finder . So use the manual control strip to go up or down Hi Guy, I agree that ISO in the top LCD and EV in the finder would be great but I doubt that those changes can be made without introducing a revised model. The firmware changes, however, would be possible to apply to the current M8. So, for now, I'm just trying to encourage Leica to do what's possible. Cheers, Sean Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sean_reid Posted September 20, 2006 Share #80 Posted September 20, 2006 Just my $.02 from shooting the D200 as my digital camera and only thinking about the functions which would carry over to rangefinder, single metering mode, and manual focus: WB is not needed as a quick adjustment as it can be adjusted in RAW processing. Quality is normally set to RAW for me and never changed. All of the NR, saturation, sharpening, etc... is basically turned off. Once again RAW processing. EV is important and I want immediate quick access. ISO is also very important and I want immediate quick access. If I had quick access to EV & ISO through one button press and turning a dial, I would be set. Best, Ray Hi Ray, I talked about this question in the review. Photographers who work in RAW don't necessarily need quick access to WB settings but JPEG photographers do. Photojournalists, in particular, often shoot in JPEG and the files they send electronically to photo editors may see little further editing before publication. A professional camera needs to work well for RAW and JPEG workflows. Cheers, Sean Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.