gareth_c Posted September 18, 2006 Share #101 Posted September 18, 2006 Advertisement (gone after registration) I'll respond to your point. Of course a reviewer should be objective and Leica wouldn't reasonably expect universal praise from all reviewers on all aspects of the camera. But they should expect a fair and professional review and they've every right to expect that a reviewer will stick to the agreements he or she made. Cheers, Sean I'm not entirely clear though why people are so up in arms about his review. I am surprised that people necessarily expected his review to read much differently to be honest. As for the agreements that were in place...I totally agree and by virtue of the fact that the images have now gone at least some of the issues Leica may have had to face have now gone. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted September 18, 2006 Posted September 18, 2006 Hi gareth_c, Take a look here Erwin Puts review. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
Guest guy_mancuso Posted September 18, 2006 Share #102 Posted September 18, 2006 Too much bandwidth on a review that is flawed in many ways. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
albertwang Posted September 18, 2006 Share #103 Posted September 18, 2006 It's strange that a guy who wrote Leica Lens Compedium, a masterpiece of optical reading, turns out a review as sketchy as the M8/DMR reviews. Apparently he knows how to analyze lenses but when it comes to bodies Puts is a little less sure of himself. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
reddawn Posted September 18, 2006 Share #104 Posted September 18, 2006 Alfie, as a 'professional' I would have expected you to have realised that not all sports photography is done with long lenses. It's quite common in football (i.e. soccer) games for pitch side photographers to have long lenses and also a wide zoom for post goal celebration shots. Correct. The only (American) football photo with all 22 players in the photo at the same time at the time of play was shot with a Leica with a 28mm wide angle lens. None other than Garry Winogrand Besides, Ian berry from Magnum worked as a photojournalist. Who knows, he might have done sports photos himself.... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guy_mancuso Posted September 18, 2006 Share #105 Posted September 18, 2006 Albert that is really what it comes down too. i questioned him on the DMR and got this long e-mail from him about his testing and that it was accurate and why question him on the use of shooting jpegs. I honestly fell off the chair laughing. his lens reviews are really spot on and have bought on those reviews and in most cases I agree with his findings. However just becuase the medium has changed does not mean all you experience in film has automatically changed to digital , frankly far from it. i learned both film and the last when the Apple quadro 840 av appeared on the scene whenever that was i was starting digital. it has taken years to understand it and how it truly works and how to test it and the software to make it optimum. This was long before any real good software was around. so just to say you know what your doing or think you are is not always the case. Simply put shooting jpegs is completely the wrong way to test any camera be it Canon , Nikon or leica. The way they are setup is completely different than any other . You have to shoot raw period than try to pick a program (Even this is not fool proof) that will work with both camera's . Seriously in my huge thread with the DMR and 1dsMKII folks don't understand the undertaking of such a test , anything can throw it off and be biased to one or the other. Trying to pick neutral terriotory is like pulling your hair out. Anyway let's just say his techniques are flawed in too many area's . Problem is people listen to him and his information is not correct and that is a problem. The other issue with reviews like this is there based on what it costs. Which is the wrong way to test or evaluate a system. First find out how good it really is than base that info on than is it worth it, i always put money as secondary not as the primary reason. Finally any tests on the M8 should be compared against the DMR . That is the big brother and is almost exactly the same sensor and if it checks out to be as good than you know it is a viable system. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
albertwang Posted September 18, 2006 Share #106 Posted September 18, 2006 Ah, yes sports photographical candids I forgot! I was thinking too much about SI stuff. Guy, you're right. I wonder what kind of Erwin Puts workflow do we have. It doesn't seem to be consistent. For example, I have a consistent workflow that I use in my studio. Unless Puts has something up his sleeve, I would like to see his workflow and then we can critique to improve on what he wrote on. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
fotografr Posted September 18, 2006 Share #107 Posted September 18, 2006 Advertisement (gone after registration) I've been following this entire thread without saying anything, but here's where the discussion has left me: --I'm not cancelling my order for the M8.....yet. I don't care what's said about the camera before the final version is out. I only care about the actual production model and from what I've heard it's not here at this point. --I don't need to see any comparisons between the M8 and other cameras (not even the DMR). I just want to see some RAW files that I can evaluate independently. The image quality has to be good enough that I can sell my photos to publications without editors complaining about the files. For me, that's the bottom line. --I'm very concerned about Puts' comments about the shutter delay. Anything noticeable would likely be enough to take me out of the market for the M8. I've had more than my share of shutter lag problems with P&S cameras and early pro digitals and don't care to experience it again. I don't have any idea whether this is something that can be addressed with firmware but I kind of have my doubts. --I'm also concerned about noise issues. Considering the cost of the M8, I'll expect the camera to be able to produce high quality, relatively noise free images up to, at least, 800 ISO. If it can't do that, I'll be looking again at the Epson RD-1s. I still have very high hopes for the M8 and judging by the number of comments here and the number of hits on the Leica website, I would appear to be part of a very large group. Clearly, the M8 will identify Leica as either a serious, albeit small, contender in the high end digital realm; or as a company that couldn't quite keep up with the times. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mitchell Posted September 18, 2006 Share #108 Posted September 18, 2006 Brent, I don't think shutter delay will prove to be a concern. The way I read Puts it was a matter of "feel" rather than time lapse. Sean is quite unequivocal in his review saying there is no noticeable delay. Best, Mitchell Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChipNovaMac Posted September 18, 2006 Share #109 Posted September 18, 2006 D'accord, what is a M8 doing being tested for a sports photographer website? Rangefinder for sports, eh... Sometimes it is about the right tools for the right time. Not sports related, but in the recent past only Leica RF's have been allowed in certain situations with the White House and the POTUS. I can see in some situations in sports that "stealth" could be an advantage. Of course reviewers should be free to voice their opinions but in this case, our Dutch friend was apparently in flagrant breach of his Non-Disclosure Agreement. I say "apparently" because it may be he got his dog to sign it. If you then add in the lack of rigour in his testing, the message which comes across is mis-leading and outright inaccurate. All in all, the rush to publish no matter what shows him to be gratuitously self-indulgent. Amen, as much as I disagree with Phil & Company over at DPR at times, at least they respect the limits on which they can and not comment on. Including posting images from a "beta" camera. No telling how "old" of a beta sample he was working with. I have faith in that Leica this time will not repeat the "disaster" of the M5. What ever the ship date, I am confident that it will be producing images that most of us will be happy with. I have been happy with what I have seen from the Epson RD1 series, so I have some great hopes with the new sensor for the M8. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
brunom Posted September 26, 2006 Share #110 Posted September 26, 2006 Maybe his recent inconsistancy has something to do with his latest photographic models distracting him from objectivity ! Bruno Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
karmadragon Posted October 25, 2006 Share #111 Posted October 25, 2006 I see it is dramatic diferences between Leica and Canon except resolution( color, tone, 3D, hightlight & shadow detail...). Leica is alot better even Canon looks good. I post a photo of a box made in China at Tang Dynasty about 1300 years ago(Sigma SD10 and 1960 90mm elmarit). It was made of ceramic and jewllery powders. The hi-end touch quality is very hard to handle( some moving rainbow light on the surface too). I know DMR 48 bit color with the same 90 elmarit will sharper and more color detail but 3D the SD10 still better. I saw alot of photos of DMR from my friend on files and papers. They still have excellent performance of Leica lens. I will buy a M8 & SD14 later. I think for majority, thing are so close and hard to see, I am very happy that Leica still here and made the M8( such an company used to only make photo equiments for very few specialists. Happy to see people here and talk about.....Enjoy Morgan Tang's box.pdf Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mgrayson Posted October 25, 2006 Share #112 Posted October 25, 2006 You have to shoot raw period than try to pick a program (Even this is not fool proof) that will work with both camera's . Seriously in my huge thread with the DMR and 1dsMKII folks don't understand the undertaking of such a test , anything can throw it off and be biased to one or the other. Guy, Why do you feel that using the same software is necessary, or even appropriate? Any given RAW converter is still going to treat each camera differently, so why not compare the best of each? I admit that I was quite discouraged about digital Leica from the early pages of the DMR vs. Canon thread (later rebadged the DMR bible) because there seemed to be a lot of comparisons of well processed DMR shots against badly processed 1DsII shots and Lo! The Leica was better! Later comparisons that tried to get the best from each camera carried more weight. And while I'm speaking to you directly, I applaud your enthusiasm and devotion so superior optics, although it has cost me a lot in lenses over the last few years. Sigh. I used to love my 21/2.8 Distagon.... Best Regards, Matt Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guy_mancuso Posted October 25, 2006 Share #113 Posted October 25, 2006 Actually Matt for a sensor test which it really was it made more sense that way and seemed more fair . than i tried it other ways also. Get the absolute best from each camera . I will say though the Canons are really good with C1 and the profiles Magne used and i used C1 long before the DMR . At the time i believe ACR was only available for the DMR so the thread started with ACR than moved to C1( I dislike ACR). So from memory here we started comparing with ACR since both camera's could use them than went to C1 than i sold the Canon so the thread went completely towards the DMR. It was a hard comparision because i tried my best in the beginning to keep everything as neutral as i could. it is two completely diffrent sensors and also how they are setup internally. Anyway adding diffferent raw processors to each other just threw another curve in there but in the end we tried every converter there was. I still belive C1 is the best converter out there for any camera. they just seem to do a excellent job of making the profiles for different camera's. But you are correct also the beginning was rough for me becuase of my dislike for ACR and honestly itis a raw day when i used it, so i was out of my processing element right from the start, had it been C1 it would have been better for me. I belive there is plenty of talk about this in that thread 10000 posts ago. LOL Anyway that is water under the bridge. I really want to compare the DMR and the M8 and see what I need to know about each system. I have a complete M and R system so this should be fun. just waiting for the M8 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mgrayson Posted October 25, 2006 Share #114 Posted October 25, 2006 Guy, I confess, I only read a few hundred pages in that thread, so I might have missed something (The M8 thread is over 100 pages, and almost no one has the camera. That's posting dedication!) As you say, it's a new game now, and I also am very interested in the M8 DMR comparison, as I have such respect for the DMR images. Best, Matt Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guy_mancuso Posted October 26, 2006 Share #115 Posted October 26, 2006 I know many want the test between the 5D and the M8. I can see why that is per say but they are different beasts that do things differntly. I know noise is one issue and the M8 in my mind held much better detail going up than the 5D did, rather have the detail personally and deal with the noise. You can't get what is not there to start but anyway the Dmr really has such a knack for image and the M8 is really the kissing cousin just in a different form factor. What i am hoping is there the same as image goes with a little extra bump on the noise. I am comfortable with ISO 400 on the DMR and have delivered many images like that, now if i could pick it up to ISO 800 alone i am happy and 1250 actually looks like the threshold to me and that was one test i woud like to do is the noise between them. This way you know when you go out what to expect. that is my reason for testing really is to know the limits of the camera and what it can and can't do. than take that knowledge from the test and go to work with it. Anyway i think it would be a interesting comparision because we know what the DMR can do , now can the M8 match it or even exceed it. Just the lenses alone should give the M the edge. That thread is 2 weeks of reading, i don't have the patience to read it again myself. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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