marknorton Posted May 16, 2008 Share #61 Posted May 16, 2008 Advertisement (gone after registration) I hope Dr. Kaufmann will not be offended by the Anglo-Saxon habit of dropping honorifics when discussing somebody... My thoughts too; one of things I like about doing business in Germany is the rather more formal approach to things. I find Germans are unfailingly polite to me and each other and it's refreshing compared to some of the people I have to deal with in the UK and US. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted May 16, 2008 Posted May 16, 2008 Hi marknorton, Take a look here Interview with Kaufmann. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
delander † Posted May 16, 2008 Share #62 Posted May 16, 2008 Well I can use the 'honorific' Dr but never do and positively dislike it. I dont put M.Sc. or B.Sc. of even GCE (LOL) after my name, and I see no logic for Dr or 'Ing' etc. People are personalities and characters not titles. What does it mean, you spent some time studying? Jeff Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bill Posted May 16, 2008 Share #63 Posted May 16, 2008 Well I can use the 'honorific' Dr but never do and positively dislike it. I dont put M.Sc. or B.Sc. of even GCE (LOL) after my name, and I see no logic for Dr or 'Ing' etc. People are personalities and characters not titles. What does it mean, you spent some time studying? Jeff That's your choice, Jeff. But Dr. is an honorific, and should be used if appropriate, out of common courtesy. As I said earlier, the bare patronymic is simply rude. Regards, Bill Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
veraikon Posted May 16, 2008 Share #64 Posted May 16, 2008 M.Sc. or B.Sc. of even GCE (LOL) after my name, and I see no logic for Dr or 'Ing' etc. it is a very typical austrian* style to mention these academic degrees. (Herr Magister, Frau Doktor, Herr Professor ...). Kaufmann is an Austrian citizen (even if he doesn’t speak in typical Austrian German) * btw Austria is at my knowledge the single country in which a Master degree in medicine is named "Dr. med." ( = M.D.) for that purpose In der Studienrichtung Humanmedizin wird der Grad „Dr. med. univ.“ und für Zahnmedizin der Grad „Dr. med. dent.“ vergeben. Hier handelt es sich um sogenannte „Berufsdoktorate“, das heißt diese Doktorgrade werden mit dem Abschluss des Studiums (Examens) ohne zusätzliche Promotionsleistung vergeben. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
veraikon Posted May 16, 2008 Share #65 Posted May 16, 2008 As an RIT alumnus I think this is really weird. sorry I can only tell what I have read before. But RIT seems satisfied: RIT - University News Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevelap Posted May 16, 2008 Share #66 Posted May 16, 2008 That's your choice, Jeff. But Dr. is an honorific, and should be used if appropriate, out of common courtesy. As I said earlier, the bare patronymic is simply rude. Regards, Bill We are straying off the original topic, but isn't it a cultural thing really? It's long been the convention in the UK that the use of 'Dr', in everyday parlance, is reserved for 'Doctors of Medicine'. For others qualified to PhD level and entitled to that honorific, it's use is normally restricted to the appropriate academic or professional arena (and to insist otherwise can be seen as an affectation). In many continental European countries of course the widespread use of 'Dr' and 'Ing' etc is the norm and entirely appropriate, to the extent that it would rightly cause offence were the honorific not used. One of the etiquette and linguistic minefields associated with an international forum I suppose (don't even mention 'fanny', let's not go there:D). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanG Posted May 16, 2008 Share #67 Posted May 16, 2008 Advertisement (gone after registration) I have a cousin (By marriage - my side of the family is not this bright) who is a professor at Yale. He has a PhD of course, but the Yale website doesn't refer to him as "Dr" but as Edward H. Kaplan. And the links are very informal too. I guess at Yale it is not such a big deal to have a PhD. Yale School of Management - Faculty - Edward H. Kaplan Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dalippe Posted May 16, 2008 Share #68 Posted May 16, 2008 We are straying off the original topic, but isn't it a cultural thing really? It's long been the convention in the UK that the use of 'Dr', in everyday parlance, is reserved for 'Doctors of Medicine'. For others qualified to PhD level and entitled to that honorific, it's use is normally restricted to the appropriate academic or professional arena (and to insist otherwise can be seen as an affectation). In many continental European countries of course the widespread use of 'Dr' and 'Ing' etc is the norm and entirely appropriate, to the extent that it would rightly cause offence were the honorific not used. One of the etiquette and linguistic minefields associated with an international forum I suppose (don't even mention 'fanny', let's not go there:D). It is also cultural because internet forums have a distinct culture, and it is among the most informal cultures one is likely to encounter. Where else to do people fail to proof read for spelling and grammar when they know they will be read by thousands of others? I think most people who read and/or participate in such forums are aware of this informality and are unlikely to be offended when referred to by last name only. I imagine Leica's CEO is no exception and has bigger fish to fry than worrying about this! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted May 17, 2008 Share #69 Posted May 17, 2008 * btw Austria is at my knowledge the single country in which a Master degree in medicine is named "Dr. med." ( = M.D.) for that purpose Germany too. And Dr.med.dent for a dentist. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
j. white Posted May 17, 2008 Share #70 Posted May 17, 2008 What is most interesting to me about this interview is how it seems to fit into a very effective marketing strategy. By releasing select tidbits of information via interviews, each time expanding upon the themes discussed in prior articles, Doktor Kaufmann has kept a buzz about Leica's upcoming offerings alive without incurring great marketing expense. It's really quite shrewd. -J. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
veraikon Posted May 17, 2008 Share #71 Posted May 17, 2008 Germany too. And Dr.med.dent for a dentist. As far as I know in Germany even a “medicine-men” needs a "scientific " PhD theses for getting the academic degree Dr. med. There are a lot of physicians and dentists (e.g. my dentist) without this degree. In Austria the university will give the "Dr. med univ." to you automatically when you are finishing your studies. You wont find any without this title and without using it It is very unique because the Dr. rer nat , Dr phil. etc. needs a supplementary study and a scientific theses. (As far as I know A. Kaufmann is a Dr phil) In the causes of honoric/academic degrees Austria is very old-fashioned. In public services or at bank counters you will find there often people with a masters degree. In Germany you name them with their surname (Herr Schmidt, Frau Meier), in Austria I would strongly recommend to you to add the academic degree (Herr Magister Schmidt, Frau Magister Meier) even at the bank counter . But this is total off-topic I never talked to Mr. Kaufmann - and I won´t ever. But my impression (from the TV features about Leica) - he doesn´t seem to be very austrian. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
marknorton Posted May 17, 2008 Share #72 Posted May 17, 2008 Dr Kaufmann and family are said to have the largest private fortune in Austria, derived from the sale of a packaging business. As such, you'd expect him to have a much more global view of things than his Austrian roots might at first suggest. The small amount of communication I've had with him directly shows he is completely fluent in English, for example. Hell, he might even know the difference between "there", "their" and "they're". Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdai Posted May 17, 2008 Share #73 Posted May 17, 2008 Kaufmann is actually a name of Jewish (Ashkenazic) origin, meaning "merchant" or "wholesaler". I think it's a quite common name in Austria. The global marketing manager of the Viennese piano manufacturer Borsendorfer is also called Andreas Kaufmann. Addressing people properly in the German fashion will quickly become second nature should you spend a little while in the country. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stunsworth Posted May 17, 2008 Share #74 Posted May 17, 2008 Indeed he might, and since he presumably learned English as a foreign language maybe that's because he also have learned English grammar - something that I (and I suspect many on this forum) were never taught. Maybe that's why the English have such a terrible reputation for learning languages, they don't learn the skeleton of grammar upon which sits the flesh of vocabulary. My, that last sentence sounded pretentious. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stunsworth Posted May 17, 2008 Share #75 Posted May 17, 2008 Addressing people properly in the German fashion will quickly become second nature should you spend a little while in the country. It sounds like one of those customs you adoprt if you are living or working in a foreign country - a bit like the 'death by handshake' when you arrive in a French office in the morning. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdai Posted May 17, 2008 Share #76 Posted May 17, 2008 a bit like the 'death by handshake' when you arrive in a French office in the morning. There's no "morning" in a French office, Steve ... people show up at lunch time. After a nice meal together, it's time to beat the traffic to go home. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted May 17, 2008 Share #77 Posted May 17, 2008 As far as I know in Germany even a “medicine-men” needs a "scientific " PhD theses for getting the academic degree Dr. med. There are a lot of physicians and dentists (e.g. my dentist) without this degree. In Austria the university will give the "Dr. med univ." to you automatically when you are finishing your studies. You wont find any without this title and without using it It is very unique because the Dr. rer nat , Dr phil. etc. needs a supplementary study and a scientific theses. (As far as I know A. Kaufmann is a Dr phil) In the causes of honoric/academic degrees Austria is very old-fashioned. In public services or at bank counters you will find there often people with a masters degree. In Germany you name them with their surname (Herr Schmidt, Frau Meier), in Austria I would strongly recommend to you to add the academic degree (Herr Magister Schmidt, Frau Magister Meier) even at the bank counter . But this is total off-topic I never talked to Mr. Kaufmann - and I won´t ever. But my impression (from the TV features about Leica) - he doesn´t seem to be very austrian. That is true in a sense. To obtain one's Dr. med one needs to write a post graduate essay. But that is far, far removed from the level of a PhD. The titles in Germany, Austria and the Netherlands are all slightly different, but are all recognized under German law. That dates back to WWII, when the Nazi's decided that Jews needed to use Dr.-J or Dr med-J as opposed to "Aryans", these countries being considered the core "Aryan Nations. They needed to homologize the whole title structure for that. The Dr.-J was repealed in 1945, but the rest of the law slumbered on. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
adan Posted May 17, 2008 Share #78 Posted May 17, 2008 Lordy - i've never seen a thread go so far astray since the Leica User Group got off onto single-malt Scotch a few years ago. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
veraikon Posted May 17, 2008 Share #79 Posted May 17, 2008 Kaufmann is actually a name of Jewish (Ashkenazic) origin, meaning "merchant" or "wholesaler". It was the other direction. "Kaufmann" is the german word for a merchant. The "jiddish" leant it. And Kaufmann as name is very common. In the telephone book of my home city ( 130 000 inhab.) two columns - and three "Andreas Kaufmann" Lordy - i've never seen a thread go so far astray since the Leica User Group got off onto single-malt Scotch a few years ago. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted May 17, 2008 Share #80 Posted May 17, 2008 Lordy - i've never seen a thread go so far astray since the Leica User Group got off onto single-malt Scotch a few years ago. True - shutting up NOW. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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