Yes or No, Black or White is Leica going to make the R10?

[adi sudarsono]

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Hi,

 

Yes, R10 please.

 

My hope is if the mount is different from the current then it's not called R-mount. It will cause difficulties identifying the existing R-lens with the new R-lens.

 

R10 or make the DMR II. With a DMR II, at least I'll have an excuse to buy the R9. If the M has perpetual upgrades and D2 owners can upgrade to D3, so may we R users have the same treat please.

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[rob_x2004]

Leica development ...

... and all the answers at Bills thread.

[mooky]

As I said,,,,,,Mr. Kaufmann's comments last fall definitely hint at something different,,,who really knows??? Oh wait, some people on these Forum pages seem to know EVERYTHING and have nothing better to do than act like it........

 

Sorry, but really, to you-know-it-alls,,,,,take a humble pill......

[Guest rweisz]

I'm sure they won't make a White one. If anything they'll make the R10 Black and Silver.

[Jamie Roberts]

{snipped}

Generic software such as Aperture, Lightroom are known to be best for nothing ... Canon users' best bet is still their own DPP, Nikon users will most likely settle on their own Capture NX.

 

Simon--that's truly a long and hearty laugh!!

 

DPP is best for colour out of Canon RAW files, but only if you don't have good ICC profiles for C1; for quality of output, highlight preservation, and most importantly, solid workflow, C1 walks all over DPP!!

 

I won't even get into how many Nikon users feel about the reliability and speed of Nikon software

 

In fact, no-one I know who is an event pro of any kind uses the manufacturer's software (in fact, no pro I've met does either, though there are some on the company payroll who can demonstrate it! I'm sure there are some, but I haven't met them).

 

There are many partners for Leica to create good firmware and revolutionary electronics. I can think of three likely candidates off the top of my head.

 

But I guess we'll see I still think there will be a good R story in September.

[rosuna]

Lightroom and Aperture will have the vast majority of the RAW processing market in a few months. I know many professional Canon users, but nobody use DPP. The same goes for Capture One, which is losing its market share. This is the trend.

[AlanG]

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Lightroom and Aperture will have the vast majority of the RAW processing market in a few months. I know many professional Canon users, but nobody use DPP. The same goes for Capture One, which is losing its market share. This is the trend.

 

This may be true.

 

C-1 Pro and DPP do not have some of the adjustments that are found in other programs. So I don't use DPP and rarely convert with C-1. I might still use C-1 for people shots as it is easy to get good skin tones with it. And I still use C-1 for tethered shooting and editing the job.

 

Specifically, fill light and highlight recovery are missing from DPP and C-1. They also lack the ability to adjust the hue, saturation, and lightness of individual colors. Although C-1 has a color tool that can be used to save a new profile - rather than applied to each image. DPP has lens correction features (vignetting, distortion, c/a) which is a good idea, but they are not applied automatically or in batch and must be re-adjusted for every image. This is very slow.

 

For about two years now, C-1 has been promising a new version of C-1 Pro with all of these modern features and more. They are over a year passed their projected delivery date and don't even mention it on their site now. I wonder if Phase One's teaming up with Microsoft will help get this out ;-).

 

I haven't tried Aperture, but Lightroom has very nice color and tone controls. (Fill light, recovery, color editing, etc.) As a matter of fact, I just was teaching at a school where they use Lightroom. One student had an image of a grey fitness center, where there was purple on one of the pieces of equipment due to mixed lighting (daylight in that area on a shot balanced for fluorescent.) I showed her how to turn down the saturation of just the purple and it made the whole shot look clean. I don't know how you'd do that in DPP and you'd have to use C-1's color editor to edit the profile and save a new profile to achieve similar results. The alternative would have been to use Photoshop's color replacement brush which would have been much slower and required a bit more skill. (But may still be the only way to handle localized correction where the same color must be preserved elsewhere in the image.)

 

For PC only, ACDSEE Pro 2 has some unique tools including a shadow/highlights tool that works sort of like an audio equalizer. It uses seperate sliders to adjust each part of the image. ACDSEE pro 2 supports the M8 but is for Windows only.

 

Neither Lightroom, C-1, nor ACDSEE have perspective or lens corrections as are found in DXO. And that is now a requirement for me.

 

In my tests, DXO 4.5.1 did a better job with angular lines and had the least artifacting compared with C-1 Pro and DPP 3.2. There is a new version 5 of DxO out but all the reports say it is very buggy. DXO does not support the M8 in terms of camera and lens modules. I don't know if it can read dng files although it can output them.

 

Here's a link to my test:

 

http://goldsteinphoto.com/Posts/conversion.jpg

[mat_mcdermott]

Maybe. Maybe not. Yes. No. Perhaps.

 

... splunge ...

[sdai]

I have 5 meetings back to back today so I can't write a long post ... just two quick clarifications:

 

1. I ONLY have said Aperture/Lightroom are NOT the best;

2. I didn't say which is the best.

 

Ok?

 

The rest is up to the debate.

 

I do not know it all, and it's NOT about the new camera will be good or not.

 

All I wanted to say is, if the new camera does not provide full native support to the R lenses, then I won't buy it.

[R10dreamer]

To quote my father (passed away) - "You guys are all screwy."

 

Leica is in the optics business, not the camera business. People buy Leica for the glass, not the bodies. The bodies are a vehicle to sell the GLASS. There may not be a lot of Leica R cameras out there but I would guess there are lots and lots of R glass out there. I have 2 R8's (one DMR) but I own a 19mm, 28mm, 50mm, 100mm, 70-180mm, 280mm and 400mm; along with 1.2x, 2x and macro adapter. That is a LOT of money to surround two camera bodies.

 

All I want is a body to use my glass with. I don't need Canon's and Nikons "design for dummies" do everything cameras. I need a body that works, 18-22 mpx, focus indicator (but not really I just say this to satisfy others) and FF. Oh yea, flash shoe that works with digital. That's it. They can add more FPS if they want, they can add more bells and whistles if they want but they have to have a NEW body to sell their lenses.

 

Leica is a glass company folks. Keep that in mind.

[R10dreamer]

To quote my father (passed away) - "You guys are all screwy."

 

Leica is in the optics business, not the camera business. People buy Leica for the glass, not the bodies. The bodies are a vehicle to sell the GLASS. There may not be a lot of Leica R cameras out there but I would guess there are lots and lots of R glass out there. I have 2 R8's (one DMR) but I own a 19mm, 28mm, 50mm, 100mm, 70-180mm, 280mm and 400mm; along with 1.2x, 2x and macro adapter. That is a LOT of money to surround two camera bodies.

 

All I want is a body to use my glass with. I don't need Canon's and Nikons "design for dummies" do everything cameras. I need a body that works, 18-22 mpx, focus indicator (but not really I just say this to satisfy others) and FF. Oh yea, flash shoe that works with digital. That's it. They can add more FPS if they want, they can add more bells and whistles if they want but they have to have a NEW body to sell their lenses.

 

Leica is a glass company folks. Keep that in mind. ;) ;)

[mgcd]

To quote my father (passed away) - "You guys are all screwy."

 

Leica is in the optics business, not the camera business. People buy Leica for the glass, not the bodies. The bodies are a vehicle to sell the GLASS. There may not be a lot of Leica R cameras out there but I would guess there are lots and lots of R glass out there. I have 2 R8's (one DMR) but I own a 19mm, 28mm, 50mm, 100mm, 70-180mm, 280mm and 400mm; along with 1.2x, 2x and macro adapter. That is a LOT of money to surround two camera bodies.

 

All I want is a body to use my glass with. I don't need Canon's and Nikons "design for dummies" do everything cameras. I need a body that works, 18-22 mpx, focus indicator (but not really I just say this to satisfy others) and FF. Oh yea, flash shoe that works with digital. That's it. They can add more FPS if they want, they can add more bells and whistles if they want but they have to have a NEW body to sell their lenses.

 

Leica is a glass company folks. Keep that in mind.

 

Leica is in the photographic equipment business, that includes cameras. That said, I agree with you when it comes to the rest of your comment.

 

I buy Leica as much for the bodies as for the optics, but then again I tend to want to control the camera and not the other way around.

 

Cheers,

[R10dreamer]

OK. I'll re-state it. Leica's PROFITS comes from their glass. Glass is the profit center, not camera's. They need camera's to see glass, not the other way around.

[Riley]

OK. I'll re-state it. Leica's PROFITS comes from their glass. Glass is the profit center, not camera's. They need camera's to see glass, not the other way around.

 

maybe it does for Leica, maybe

but with everyone else somebody worked out from CIPA figures they sell on

* average 2.2 lenses per dSLR.

* Lenses move slower and have less profit margin

* dSLRs are 11% by volume and 30% of income

[mycube]

hello,

 

please not, no more mistakes, push the fourthirds-system, thats the goal!

 

cheers

...

[mjh]

maybe it does for Leica, maybe

but with everyone else somebody worked out from CIPA figures they sell on

* average 2.2 lenses per dSLR.

* Lenses move slower and have less profit margin

* dSLRs are 11% by volume and 30% of income

Actually, this is not just true for Leica, but for other vendors too. Only with other vendors, the figures get distorted when they lump together entry-level and high-end DSLRs. Canon and Nikon don’t make much profit from selling their high-end cameras, but the entry-level offerings and the lenses are quite profitable. In other words, they have to sell lots of lenses to professional photographers but can live with selling just two lenses to their entry-level customers.

[RobMac]

As much as I'd wish an R10 to be a reality tomorrow:

 

An uber pro DSLR R10 concept camera, under glass for release 'soon' that (sadly) morphs into permanently 'coming soon' + a (or some) high-end PanaLeica unit(s) with R lens compatibility for low-risk cash flow and better mid-market DSLR penetration while Solms focuses management bandwidth and $$$ on M.

[paulmoore]

As much as I'd wish an R10 to be a reality tomorrow:

 

An uber pro DSLR R10 concept camera, under glass for release 'soon' that (sadly) morphs into permanently 'coming soon' + a (or some) high-end PanaLeica unit(s) with R lens compatibility for low-risk cash flow and better mid-market DSLR penetration while Solms focuses management bandwidth and $$$ on M.

 

I hear your doubts, But..It wasn't that long ago that I had my dmr in my hands and everybody who wanted a mythical digital M were bitching and moaning about it not happening and leica was going bankrupt..blah,blah,blah.. and solms at that time was not saying that a digital m it was going to happen.. well it did.

I think they did well for first attempts at both the dmr and the M8 and I think they will continue to develope and produce the quality I need in a camera, despite the nay-sayers.

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Hallo,

Look here: Interesting Leica gear

[RobMac]

True Paul. Call me a glass 1/2 empty shooter, but think of Sony's A900 (sounds and look sweet, but seemingly on perpetual 'hold') morphing into Pentax's promised and now dead MFD body.

 

Let me put it another (long-winded) way:

-------------------

IF I were heavily invested in R glass and Leica DID pour the kings' ransom and management focus needed to develop an uber FF AF DSLR and a new line of glass simply to tickle Canon/Nikon/ and eventually(?) Sony behind the knees at this point; I'd sell all but the most coveted 1-2 because bankruptcy or a takeover from a financially crippled state by ____ would be an eventual and rightfully lamented certainty.

 

To pour into the high-end full frame market with it's resource-sucking 18 month turnover cycle after Leica's absence and (relatively) miniscule size to go after the D3, D3x, 1Ds3, A900 AND the Hasselblad 503CWD and Mamiya/Phase One ZD (expected R10 pricing = entry-level MF kit) would not be ( I'll be polite) the best example of corporate fiduciary duty.

 

Leica's assets are its glass expertise and it's technological and market dominance of the RF segment - as relatively small as the latter is. Both also make any weakened Leica a VERY tempting target for someone like, but not limited to, Sony.

 

In Sony's case, they could combine their financial monolith and upcoming DSLR sensor tech with an instant rep in SLR AND RF glass formulae, a world-class premier brand name and instant ownership of the RF market. The latter having a luxury high-margin component that could be further pushed to pros for low-light excellence and it's small form factor and pushed down-market with lower-priced (& equipped) units to pull cash flow.

 

That said, speculation from the cheap seats, while fun, matters little right?

 

NB - Before someone starts wordsmithing;

 

"Originally Posted by RobMac

As much as I'd wish an R10 to be a reality tomorrow"

 

should have read "As much as I wish an R10 COULD be a DOABLE reality tomorrow."

[RobMac]

Re-reading my rather doom & gloom post, one much more logical ray of sunshine would be a simple (as mentioned earlier) DMR II.

 

Tweak the R9 to end the #$% film scratching with a simple $5 film roller bearing like everyone else, but no other substantive mods. No AF, say 4-5 fps max, LiO battery.

 

Back with FF 16MP or so sensor (don't go nuts - keep nice fat light buckets), no AA filter, lets say 5D-esque ISO performance (a very clean ISO 800 and usable ISO 1600). Focus confirm and LV would be nice - but only if the $$$ required to implement warranted it. Ensure R8-9 backward compatibility.

 

Better idea re: LiveView might be a typical small screen and an LV 'tap' socket so user could plug something like an iPod Touch into the camera to get that view camera functionality with the 'pod (or what have you) on an adjustable cold shoe mount. Lots of great small screens out there - no need to build one into every body.

 

Partner properly to get and keep the price of the back and R9+ down.

 

Much less investment, much lower risk, not targeted at the mass market pro DSLR user but keeps the brand in the game and leverages all that great glass.

 

For the preceding, I'd get back my 180/2, 80 Lux, 90AA, etc., etc.