Ivar B Posted March 1, 2008 Author Share #21 Posted March 1, 2008 Advertisement (gone after registration) Mine is listed "Canada" but not "Made in Canada" on the back and "Leitz Wetzlar" on the top. If you send me an e-mail to breiva at online.no I will give you Jims` email address. This is better than publishing it on the open net. I have asked Martin Meister also if he knows more about this. However, there is no doubt that this is an extremely rare camera, only to be found once or twice in a lifetime. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted March 1, 2008 Posted March 1, 2008 Hi Ivar B, Take a look here Leica M4-2 Chrome. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
umanalc Posted March 1, 2008 Share #22 Posted March 1, 2008 Hi to all, and a special Hello to Jim L., wich explanations are always perfect. My sincere opinion is that most of the (many surfaced around !) chrome M4-2 may are delicioulsy fakes ! And, believe me, this opinion is very embarrassing for me, because in the many years as a Leica seller, it happened to me to sell some similar chrome M4-2, too ! There are peoples either in Germany, and in Canada, that are offering such "strange" items quite regularly. Another example, the "Midland" Leicavit, of which I have one, but that I never offered for sale, since I began to be afraid about his genuinity... However, either the chrome M4-2, and the "Midland" Leicavit are very cute items, and are a nice curiosity in any collection, of course if well working, and if not paid too much ! Greetings to all, Luigi Crescenzi - Leicatime, Roma Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ivar B Posted March 1, 2008 Author Share #23 Posted March 1, 2008 One can never never be 100 % certain I guess, although I find it hard to see how one can copy engravings etc. on the top plate and rear back. Maybe there already were parts available and these may have been used to build cameras. I know that this was the case for some Alpa models. Buying through respected dealers like I have done is probably the best cause of action, just like the one also being offered by Martin Meister now. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
luigi bertolotti Posted March 1, 2008 Share #24 Posted March 1, 2008 Uhm, as they say, "the plot thickens"... Ivar, not just to defend an Italian compatriot , but Crescenzi's opinion is not trivial... he's a very "old sailor" in the Leitz collectors world... let's consider a little the issue : - Standard M4-2 is black CHROME (not black paint) - Black painted Leicas are rather easy to be chromed: it's not so for the black chroming, but I think is possible... but is it worth the cost ? - Laney says that really M4-2 was available in "satin chrome" to special order... but I fear that Ontario's factory records are not as the legendary Wetzlar's... do not forget that (just with the M4-2, I seem) ELC factory put in place new manufacturing methods: so, I haven't idea if something original printed record does exist (ask Lager ?). - ENGRAVINGS : you say that your item is engraved simply "Canada" in the back: this variant (Wetzlar on top - Canada on back), always in Laney, is quoted to appear in s/numbers well below yours... and he says that the "Leitz on the top - Made by Leitz Canada in the back" is the later variant... this could make think of a re-finish / re-engraving of yours... - But Laney states also that your type of engraving is used "accidentaly", and this of course would be even more true for a special-ordered item... Of course, no definitive conclusion can be drawn (unless Meister or Lager can exhibit something)... I am prone to think isn't a fake, both for seller's reputation and for the reason that I doubt that the job would worth the price. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
k_g_wolf ✝ Posted March 1, 2008 Share #25 Posted March 1, 2008 In any case, it´s LEITZ or LEICA - chrome, it strongly seems. It is a unique piece, why should it be a fake ? Best Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
luigi bertolotti Posted March 1, 2008 Share #26 Posted March 1, 2008 There is no discussion about it's a real Leica, it is undoubtly (i.e., no russian or so); but the fact is that sometimes, on the market, items appear that are so called "fakes for collectors", original Leicas that hav been reworked to models that, for their rarity, are valued much more than the original; there are lot of examples... Leica Luxus is maybe the ephitome, but also the fakes "Luftwaffen Eigentum" abound, and also fakes MP (the "old" MP of course) and so on... seems that even the Leica 250 has been "faked" starting from originals IIIa. The "fakes for users" are another breed... typical are the Russian Leica IIIa (FED Kransgorsk) with the "Elmarski" (Industar lens) sold in the East Block countries in the '50s (as real Leicas) and that flooded in the West after Berlin's wall fall. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
k_g_wolf ✝ Posted March 1, 2008 Share #27 Posted March 1, 2008 Advertisement (gone after registration) >> Luigi Yes, I got your point. But I meant, it´s not an out of factory item. I had a black M4-2 in the late seventies, with exactly the same engravings. LEITZ WETZLAR on top and >>CANADA<< on the back of the topplate. It was traded in for a chrome M4-P out of several reasons, which said LEITZ on top (no WETZLAR any more) and >>Made in Canada<< on the back. A black M4-2 could - in the hands of good mechanic - have been turned into chrome with some professionel efford within the LEITZ Canada facilities. Vice versa is reported quite often: LEICA M3 and M2 cameras are turned from chrome to black paint by Shintaro for example ... Best Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
telewatt Posted March 1, 2008 Share #28 Posted March 1, 2008 The last M4-2 with the number 1533350 was a chrome one!.. .so there is no reason for a face to me...The special "Wetzlar" could be a joke of a worker, doing the last pieces... I have a picture with the same script "Leitz Wetzlar ...made in Cananda"..on a M4-2 black... the first M4-P cameras had the chrome finish, so it makes it not so strange to use for the last pieces the new finish "chrome" Regards, Jan Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
k_g_wolf ✝ Posted March 2, 2008 Share #29 Posted March 2, 2008 Just had a chance to check the camera: as far as Canada is concerned, it says >>MADE BY LEITZ CANADA<< on the M4-P. All in capital letters. Best Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
telewatt Posted March 2, 2008 Share #30 Posted March 2, 2008 >> Luigi Yes, I got your point. But I meant, it´s not an out of factory item.... Best Why not?!... ...the Number 1529098 was chrome too....special order...but factory item!.... regards, Jan Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ivar B Posted March 2, 2008 Author Share #31 Posted March 2, 2008 I have had a word with my dealer and some other dealers also. I am informed that a very few M4-2 Chrome were actually delivered to customers by special order, but it was not a regular catalog item. "Fake" Ms as it were is more a case when chrome bodies are being repainted black paint, but this is apparently easily spotted so as many of you no doubt have seen the sellers state that this is a "repainted" body. Fakes the other way around are practically unheard of. Reassemblies of old parts is a different story and could in principle not be ruled out if someone were to get hold of old stock parts. Leica are will not engrave a serial number on a top plate, unless the existing serial number is surrendered to them, as it were, and this will not de done across different bodies. A friend of mine wanted to buy a new rear plate for a Leica R6 as it had become scratched, but this is there the serial number is located and Leica flatly refused to sell a new one unless the old one was returned. My camera was also thoroughly inspected by my dealer who is very experienced and I am reassured by his statement that experts easily discover forgeries. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jc_braconi Posted March 2, 2008 Share #32 Posted March 2, 2008 Damn, wouldn't have I bought the M8... I am a lot tempted by the other offered by Meister... I prefer not to look again at their site in these days... if it would disappear I'd feel stupid for falling victim of the "McKeown law" ("anyway you pass by a rare item you like, you'll never find another for years, and when you'll find, it will cost more"), and if it continues to be offered, I'll suffer trouble.... Luigi, you do not finish the telling about the law : anyway you pass by a rare item you like, you'll never find another for years, "and if you buy it, you find the same the day after at half the prize" Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
luigi bertolotti Posted March 2, 2008 Share #33 Posted March 2, 2008 Luigi, you do not finish the telling about the law :anyway you pass by a rare item you like, you'll never find another for years, "and if you buy it, you find the same the day after at half the prize" ... Didn't want to quote... THIS already happened to me ... (for the record : I chased for years the 180 2,8 for Visoflex... finally found and bought one... and another was for sale 3 months after, for MUCH less... ) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. No Posted March 2, 2008 Share #34 Posted March 2, 2008 ... Didn't want to quote... THIS already happened to me ... (for the record : I chased for years the 180 2,8 for Visoflex... finally found and bought one... and another was for sale 3 months after, for MUCH less... ) you should have bought the other one too and sell the worse one . yours NO Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
john_newell Posted March 2, 2008 Share #35 Posted March 2, 2008 - ENGRAVINGS : you say that your item is engraved simply "Canada" in the back: this variant (Wetzlar on top - Canada on back), always in Laney, is quoted to appear in s/numbers well below yours... and he says that the "Leitz on the top - Made by Leitz Canada in the back" is the later variant... this could make think of a re-finish / re-engraving of yours... Look at Lager's book - engravings on the M4-2s are all over the ballpark (in terms of what they said and where it was engraved). I think nothing can be deduced from the engravings themselves. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ivar B Posted March 4, 2008 Author Share #36 Posted March 4, 2008 I had a word with the seller again today, and also with another expert. My seller, the largest Leica dealer in Germany, confirms without a shadow of doubt that this is an original camera. There are several indicators which support this assessment, and apparently the most important one is the nature of the chrome parts, which were examined carefully. The fake M4-2 Chrome which apperead on the scene a little later have a surface shine like the chrome M6 or MP, while the appereance of the original is more like the classic M4. This is quite easy to see when the cameras are displayed side by side. I was offered a full refund if not completely satisfied, which I refused. I am confident I own a very rare M4-2 chrome. As indicated by John in the last post, the serial numbers offer no clues. Lars Netopil in Wetzlar informed me that apparently no serial numbers were engraved on the camera when they were made, but these were recorded when the bodies were sold, which could be months or years later. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
luigi bertolotti Posted March 4, 2008 Share #37 Posted March 4, 2008 Yep, Netopil's observation is not trivial... M4-2 was the first to have the s/n engraved on the accessory shoe: an easy way to manage differently the numbering of the bodies regardless of the effective time of manufacturing : the shoe is a cheap and very standard component, easy to stock and to engrave how and when you like, easy to mount out-of-line from the real assembly work (I even suspect that the black shoes aren't chrome, but painted...); this can explain the observed loose relationship between body engravings and s/numbers... As I said, ELC established "new" manufacturing methods with M4-2, and this is, I'd say, one of the consequences. Ivar, you definitely have a very nice and rare item. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
telewatt Posted March 4, 2008 Share #38 Posted March 4, 2008 Ivan, be happy and do not think to much about it.. This is a very nice Kamera..only Leica knows the real story of the camera.. I'm very happy with my black M3 and never will be shure if it is a "custom change" or not..it looks like, has the old Leica seal, but?... regards, Jan Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lars_bergquist Posted March 7, 2008 Share #39 Posted March 7, 2008 ... Nice to see LEITZ WETZLAR on the M4-2, should be LEITZ CANADA, actually. Yes, there are Canadian Leicas marked 'Leitz Wetzlar'. For a time the company's name was actually 'Ernst Leitz Wetzlar'. The reason, I am told, was that that an administrative reform aimed at fusioning Wetzlar and Solms and some other municipalities into a larger 'Lahnstadt', so that Leitz feared that they would lose the Wetzlar unless they registered it! Protests stopped the reform - but the camera branch went to Solms nevertheless in 1984. The old man from the Age of Ernst Leitz II Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
josephgalilee Posted March 7, 2008 Share #40 Posted March 7, 2008 I'm very sorry for you, Ivar, but this is a VULGAR fake. I watch many and many fake of this camera; one for example: the last of series fabr.-nr. 1533350. The silver chrome was re-chromed from black chrome one. In your case: around the shutter release button the bright chrome ring is from M2/M3/M4 chrome model. The screw bright silver chromed of rewind lever is on M2/M3/M4 chrome model. The black plastic insert of projected bright-line selector is of M4 built style. Time selector is of M2/M3/M4 chrome model. Re-chromed top cover from a earlier black one (Leitz Wetzlar script only on earlier models, while the number of this camera is a late production batch). The screw chromed, front view, for vertical allignment i'ts not leitz original screw. From the picture i can tell you these things, if i can view other pictures i could tell you others evidences. Quick, return to your dealer this "re-built" camera, they must refund the money. I'm very sorry to tell you this things but i have to tell you the right things about this poor replica fake M4-2. Cheers giuseppe Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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