jc_braconi Posted March 8, 2008 Share #41 Posted March 8, 2008 Advertisement (gone after registration) just a copy of my post on the M4-P thread but here it is more the right place : here is a good beginning for forgeries if you are involved on : 1875 LEICA M4 -2 CHROME TOP UNUSED NO WINDOS en vente sur eBay.fr (fin le 08-Mar-08 18:14:31 Paris) Stay tuned ! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted March 8, 2008 Posted March 8, 2008 Hi jc_braconi, Take a look here Leica M4-2 Chrome. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
k_g_wolf ✝ Posted March 8, 2008 Share #42 Posted March 8, 2008 Great find ! But please don´t tell it is >>MADE IN CHINA<< ... Best Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Efra1 Posted April 6, 2009 Share #43 Posted April 6, 2009 Ok, to all of you how knows a lot of Leica, please can you tellme something about this one?? I have this one until 2005, and I allways think this is a VERY RARE M4-2. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sabears Posted April 6, 2009 Share #44 Posted April 6, 2009 I'm sorry,this is an old story,these cameras were never done by Leica. They belongs from a numbers of "strange things" out from Ontario . Leica told them to better control some people and be very cautious . Cheers Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Efra1 Posted April 7, 2009 Share #45 Posted April 7, 2009 Well, I´m not shure if Christie´s will sale some FAKES?, but thats not good for reputation, so I think the camera is a REAL one very rare M4-2... Check this link please and tell me what you think. Leica M4-2 no. 1502713 | Christie's Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wizard Posted April 7, 2009 Share #46 Posted April 7, 2009 The screw chromed, front view, for vertical allignment i'ts not leitz original screw. Yes, that screw bothered me as well when I saw the photo of the camera. I have never seen a Leica using such a screw. The screw head is usually quite a bit flatter, while this one protrudes almost hemispherically. Regards, Andreas Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pgk Posted April 7, 2009 Share #47 Posted April 7, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) Intriguing. Given that ELC were building black M4-2s and that the thread is almost certainly metric I wouldn't be surprised about a none matching screw head personally - probably a question of what was available in Midland which was chrome and that fitted. I'm not a collector in the slightest but I'd say that one way of looking at the possibility of anything being a fake is to ask just how much is the value increased and does this cover the cost of the work involved in faking + a substantial profit and all the associated selling costs? Its a bit like photos - if you have to carry out too much work in Photoshop, you might as well retake the shot as it might well be cheaper. Looks like a very nice camera to me - I'd be happy to own it! Out of curiosity how much would it be worth if it were shown to be a fake relative to the cost of a black M4-2 and relative to a 'genuine' chrome M4-2 (in percentage terms not actual price)? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sabears Posted April 7, 2009 Share #48 Posted April 7, 2009 Hi,I'm very sad ,believe me,but honesty I have to say that "Yes!",indeed the most important fake in the market were sold by the most important Auctioneer . We can talk about if they know or not,even if it seems to me difficult to believe in their total innocence. At famous Auction you can find all the best and the worst,it happens that best items go lesser than fake. Not Auction fault,it's due by lack of culture from some buyers. Now a question. What happens when you discover that your auctioned camera it's a fake? Well,i know some of these story,almost always it's a total waste of time. The answer is :almost always nothing! So,friends,be aware before you buy! Try to find more you can and read,look,ask. Cheers. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
PSS_Leitz Posted April 7, 2009 Share #49 Posted April 7, 2009 The gold one is awesome !! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wizard Posted April 7, 2009 Share #50 Posted April 7, 2009 Intriguing. Given that ELC were building black M4-2s and that the thread is almost certainly metric I wouldn't be surprised about a none matching screw head personally - probably a question of what was available in Midland which was chrome and that fitted. Well, given that ELC were building M3s, too, though at an earlier point in time, they might as well have used a replacement screw for the M3, which would have made a better fit. Leitz always believed in attention to detail, so it is hard to believe they just took any odd screw, the more so if that screw is prominently located. If it is true that these chrome version cameras are unauthorized products, possibly made by employees at ELC after the official office hours, then again it could be possible that such screws were used, simply because these cameras were never intended to be officially sold. Which leaves us with the interesting question whether a Leica done by Leitz employees, but unauthorized, is a fake or not. Genuine fake, sort of ... Andreas Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pop Posted April 7, 2009 Share #51 Posted April 7, 2009 the interesting question whether a Leica done by Leitz employees, but unauthorized, is a fake or not. Genuine fake, sort of ... Wouldn't you have to call that a black Leica? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dennersten Posted April 10, 2009 Share #52 Posted April 10, 2009 Hi,I'm very sad ,believe me,but honesty I have to say that "Yes!",indeed the most important fake in the market were sold by the most important Auctioneer .We can talk about if they know or not,even if it seems to me difficult to believe in their total innocence. At famous Auction you can find all the best and the worst,it happens that best items go lesser than fake. Not Auction fault,it's due by lack of culture from some buyers. Now a question. What happens when you discover that your auctioned camera it's a fake? Well,i know some of these story,almost always it's a total waste of time. The answer is :almost always nothing! So,friends,be aware before you buy! Try to find more you can and read,look,ask. Cheers. I am quite intrigued an puzzled by this thread. This forum does always agree. And it seems to me that if there ever are some doubt. Someone is sending a question to Lager who sorts it out, or find a book and refers to that. And the questions is settled. That did'nt seem to have happen in this thread. Is it because there are one or two loudvoiced besserwissers? Sabears. I would be very intrested to understand what sources you have in this issue? So far i don't see you refer to anything. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
luigi bertolotti Posted April 10, 2009 Share #53 Posted April 10, 2009 As others have said, this is a very old story, and I do not think is worth much to spend lot of time in discussions: fact are rather clear, indeed : A) Officially, M4-2s were never sold in chrome version - there have never been a commercial product code as for all the other listed Leica products. For various reasons (also special orders from customers, maybe), a number of chrome versions do exist, and the finishings (i.e., the chrome process) can be slightly different from one to another, for it wasn't a factory standard process C) Infact, the chroming could have been applied inside or outside the Ontario factory, by Leitz or non-Leitz technicians, using the original parts or spares as the ones above linked by JC Braconi... many ways to reach the goal of a nice chrome M4-2. D) Are they to be considered FAKES ? This is a matter of personal opinions, but I'd say NO : a fake is a camera whose mechanics has not been built into a Leica factory (ex. Russian FEDs and similar) or a heavy "home made" conversion of an original Leica to another (rare) Leica model, MADE WITH THE CLEAR AND SPECIFIC WILL to sell it as an original (ex. Leicas 250s made from Leica IIIs, with modified-"original" s/n etc.). F) This is not the case : "original" M4-2 in chrome doesn't exist, simply : so none, Christie's included, is trying to sell it as a rare original Leitz product, but simply as a model that is uncommon (and pleasant to see, imho) in that finishing ; the price of the Christie's auction above linked confirms this : a honest price for a M4-2 in very good conditions, period. G) If some dealer (professional or private) tries to sell a chrome M4-2 at an exaggerate price... sorry but this is a unfair but legitimate tentative : good for him if he succedes, not so good for the buyer, but, as always, if he is happy to have a fine M4-2 chrome, which anyway is not easy to find, that's up to him. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
luigi bertolotti Posted April 10, 2009 Share #54 Posted April 10, 2009 Just found, linked here in the thread about an ELCAN lens.... ... notes about the Ontario factory. "A lot of strange M cameras came out of there, 1/2 frame M4-2's, some 1/2 frame Md-2's, 30 chrome M4-2's and the "Israeli Tank Command" olive green M4-2 version. Some of these were made for "friends" of the company and some were bona fide special order items. " (T. Abrahamsson, a very trustable source) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jc_braconi Posted April 10, 2009 Share #55 Posted April 10, 2009 Well told Luigi. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dennersten Posted April 11, 2009 Share #56 Posted April 11, 2009 Thanks Luigi for sorting things out! Well told! It's always a pleasure to read your post! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josef D. Posted April 10, 2014 Share #57 Posted April 10, 2014 I have just acquired a Leica M4-2 Chrome for my collection, mint in box. Does anyone know how many were made of this model? I have only read that it was made to special order only and is extremely rare. In Leica International Price Guide it is listed as R9 (Almost Unique), second only to R10 (The Impossible). However, I can not find a precise number anywhere. Does anyone know? I also own an M4-2 Red Dot, which is listed as R8 (Exhibition Item), of which less than a hundred were made, so I guess M4-2 Chrome must be even rarer. Ivar, compliments for your acquisition. That is mine. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/46578-leica-m4-2-chrome/?do=findComment&comment=2566191'>More sharing options...
luigi bertolotti Posted April 10, 2014 Share #58 Posted April 10, 2014 Welcome to the forum !!! And compliments to enter with such a special item... can you give us some more detail about ? (serial n°, history, some more pictures... in this area of the forum there are lot of people happy to see such things). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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