jc_braconi Posted February 25, 2008 Share #21 Â Posted February 25, 2008 Advertisement (gone after registration) Hello, This is one of a IIIf prototypes,(1950) I have some illustrations of these prototypes in particularities, not a complete camera (have to dig in my huge documentation) based on a IIIc which is very close to the IIIf and one of the first inovation was the flash sync. the 1000/s was the inovative of the IIIa so you can find it on the IIIc. They used, at Wetzlar, all the cameras in hand for building prototypes. Keep in mind that for the M3, 65 different prototypes are registered. We can imagine that there is a lot of IIIf different prototypes, which came just before the M3. the price asked, IMHO, is the right one for this kind of camera. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted February 25, 2008 Posted February 25, 2008 Hi jc_braconi, Take a look here your opinion! Black Factory IIIc- no serial # real-fake?. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
luigi bertolotti Posted February 25, 2008 Share #22 Â Posted February 25, 2008 JC, if you say so... ok... I know you are very well documented and am ready to admit that my "stay away !" was a something irrational advice...... I'm always concerned when see white engravings that are "too white"... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jc_braconi Posted February 25, 2008 Share #23  Posted February 25, 2008 I found one illustration from PH van Hasbroeck page 92-93 The screw mounted Leicas 1925-57 here is a pict of the pages. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/46281-your-opinion-black-factory-iiic-no-serial-real-fake/?do=findComment&comment=493280'>More sharing options...
jc_braconi Posted February 25, 2008 Share #24  Posted February 25, 2008 a complete page would be better. Good night gentlemen. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/46281-your-opinion-black-factory-iiic-no-serial-real-fake/?do=findComment&comment=493298'>More sharing options...
fuchs Posted February 26, 2008 Share #25  Posted February 26, 2008 Yes, JC, it looks like one of the IIIf prototypes, but there are three details that bother me:  1- It bears no Serial Number /(as in the new old stock top plates supplied by the factory)  2- The black paint finish looks too unblemished, and we all know that black paint was certainly NOT a Leitz strength (cfr. the cited Van Hasbroeck pictures)  3- It has a step under the A-R lever, together with a very 1950's lettering, as seen on late IIIF's and IIIG's  It looks to me that the camera may be authentic, but that the top plate may have been exchanged with a "new old stock" unused factory supplied top plate, retaining the authenticity, but loosing its originality, and thus becoming a dubious specimen....  Was it originally a black camera? Was it really a IIIF prototype ? Was it really a complete "Leitz Eigentum" camera (and not only its top plate)? Furthermore... could it have been engraved later "Leitz Eigentum"?  One way to know would be to disassemble the camera and check if the sync connections are actually there as they should be, and at that time, also check what the *internal* serial number is and ask someone at Solms to look on the delivery records if it was really a Leitz Eigentum camera or not.  Cheers,  Ed Albesi Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jc_braconi Posted February 26, 2008 Share #26 Â Posted February 26, 2008 As in a lot of siuation, it is difficult to imagine or realize, if you have not lived this era, how it was difficult to find everything. The Leitz factory used all they can get to try to reborn from its ashes. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jc_braconi Posted February 26, 2008 Share #27  Posted February 26, 2008 Advertisement (gone after registration) Hello, As weltur do not tell where this camera is, (I just remember now that I have noticed it 2 month ago), here it is  Leica Screwmount  may be you can make some shopping there ... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
luigi bertolotti Posted February 26, 2008 Share #28 Â Posted February 26, 2008 Gotcha, JC !!! I think this ends any doubt... I do not think DAG displays for sale something fake or bastard... I feared Weltur found the item on ebay or so... , do you remember that "splendid" IIIG "three crowns" of some months ago ? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andybarton Posted February 26, 2008 Share #29 Â Posted February 26, 2008 Gotcha, JC !!! I think this ends any doubt... I do not think DAG displays for sale something fake or bastard... I feared Weltur found the item on ebay or so... , do you remember that "splendid" IIIG "three crowns" of some months ago ? Â I stand corrected and agree. Â If it's DAG that's selling it you can have a lot more confidence than Mr eBay. Â AND you can ask them sensible questions, and get a sensible answer. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bill Posted February 27, 2008 Share #30  Posted February 27, 2008 I stand corrected and agree. If it's DAG that's selling it you can have a lot more confidence than Mr eBay.  AND you can ask them sensible questions, and get a sensible answer.  Yeh. This does put a different complexion on it. DAG has a solid reputation. Ask the questions and expect straight answers.  Regards,  Bill Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
steed Posted February 27, 2008 Share #31 Â Posted February 27, 2008 My guess: this is a fake. "Eigentum" (German for property) is misspelled. See page 141 of "Leica-The first 70 years" for a real one. Good luck either way. John W Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
luigi bertolotti Posted February 27, 2008 Share #32 Â Posted February 27, 2008 My guess: this is a fake. "Eigentum" (German for property) is misspelled.See page 141 of "Leica-The first 70 years" for a real one. Good luck either way. John W Â Mispellings / misengravings / lost letters are known in Leitz history... Lager displays some nice examples...I remember some..."LENS MADE IN GERMAY" "ELMAR T 2,8.." "KE-7A CAMERA STILL PICTUPE" "Weztzlar"... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
fuchs Posted February 27, 2008 Share #33  Posted February 27, 2008 As most have said, knowing now that it is a camera from DAG puts it into a new perspective... This IMO removes any doubt about its authenticity. The top plate has to be indeed a new factory one, a blank one ie without the serial number. The fact that it was a Leitz Eigentum might explain its provenance directly from the factory, even if it looks still too new to me  The misspelled word "Egentum" instead of "Eigentum" is just another for the series of famous Leitz engraving errors, as Luigi has noted.  DAG Camera is owned by Don Goldberg who is quite a responsive seller, besides to being one of the best considered Leica extraofficial repair services in the US, so much that a used camera with a DAG CLA done recently usually sells for a little more or a little quicker than another similar camera.  Cheers,  Ed Albesi Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
aauckland Posted February 28, 2008 Share #34  Posted February 28, 2008 Well done JC, Excellent investigatory work, ......I believe your correct. Although the camera "feels" and "looks" authentic, (to me), even though all the, (apparent), hybrid parts look, (strongly), Leica: i.e. especially the shutter dial/sync conversion plate, and that the top plate is clearly an early IIIc. ..... it was still difficult to put together clear justification for the authenticity.  The other point, (not previously mentioned), is the spelling of the word Germany, unless the jpeg image has a flaw, the G looks like an O? ...see attached image:   Alan Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/46281-your-opinion-black-factory-iiic-no-serial-real-fake/?do=findComment&comment=496257'>More sharing options...
Weltur Posted March 2, 2008 Author Share #35  Posted March 2, 2008 thanks for all your responces/help.  its been an interesting introduction to the world of Leica! i did ask this question on another forum before here but didnt get any reponce initialy-so i searched and found this leica specific forum-i am glad i did!  i have had a busy week with work and just now logged on to find this huge informative reponce!  i can say that i did receive an email from the seller. he came across as honest enough. i asked about the internal serial # and the miss-spelled Eigentum (i did not notice the O instead of G in Germany so i did not ask) and any history he could tell about this camera.  he said it beleives it a typical war time camera and when he received the camera some time back he opened it to give it a lube as it was dry but he didnt take note of the serial number, only remembering that it began with a 3. he guessed that it was used for test or prototype purposes. the camera is missing the internal flash sync system and was not uncommon for Leitz not to complete such things as they may of been missing or short parts  . he thinks it is no big deal with the missing 'I' since it was an in house camera and says that it was common for such errors to occur. i dont know what to make of the O in germany!  another fellow mentioned to me that the top was probably unstamped surplus stock but strange to have post 1955 engraving (simular to what fuchs mentions).  no Luigi it wasnt an eb*y item--it would of only caused me serious doubt so as not to think on it again. i have bought a great many cameras off there and it is definitly hit and miss- with a leica i am inclined to purchase from a reputable source, even if i have to pay some extra to do so. i did see that 3800 EUR IIIck grey camera as well !! i like that! but its way more than i am prepared to spend. (hey at least it seems i am looking in the right places!)    still a puzzle i guess--but if one has to think twice (or many more) about a camera such as this then i guess it best left alone--no doubt if it is a good buy then this is the worst place to ask hahaha --you blokes will get it instead! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
umanalc Posted March 2, 2008 Share #36 Â Posted March 2, 2008 Very probably, a fake. This is absolutely NOT said suspecting on the DAG integrity ! Also we, dealers, may make evauation mistakes. Â Years ago, I bought a similar camera in Germany, in perfect good faith, still in my hands, then I never offered it on sale because I became very suspicious about it ! Â If you are interested, I can make and post some pictures, in the next days... And, sell it for a few ! (Paid 4.500 German Marks 10/12 years ago...) Â Ciao, Luigi Crescenzi Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. No Posted March 2, 2008 Share #37 Â Posted March 2, 2008 interesting camera, definitely original Leica IIIc! But is it originally black and originally "Leitz Eigentum". DAG just sells it as "unusual black paint" and engraved "Leitz Eigentum" everything so far allright. Â The missing serial number scares me, the goog condition as well. (DAG should have written it down ...) The engraving ist not original for the time of the IIIc. It also has some features of the IIIf -which indicates an conversion. Which I think it is, with later engraving of Leitz-Eigentum. Usually the Leica owned cameras all had serial numbers, of different kind - but they all had one ... Â Yours NO Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
luigi bertolotti Posted March 2, 2008 Share #38 Â Posted March 2, 2008 The "OERMANY" engravings makes me feel it's not a fake... why exaggerate in strangeries, if you work to obtain a credible fake ? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weltur Posted March 2, 2008 Author Share #39 Â Posted March 2, 2008 How did leitz make the engravings? were they done freehand or was a template used or more sophisticated automated machinary involved? or were they stamped/pressed? Â one would think if done freehand then there would always be differences (it seems impossible to me that various individuals can make, presumably millions of engravings excatly the same height and shape as each other over decades) but the lettering (height etc, to my eyes) seems to have remained the same throughout the years? Â if a template of some kind was used i can see how the "I" is missing as there seems enoungh space in the word that it was simply missed (e.g. E gentum) but that wouldn't explain how an O occured instead of a G? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
luigi bertolotti Posted March 3, 2008 Share #40 Â Posted March 3, 2008 I think the engravings were made with a pantography machine tool ... before the advent of laser technology it was the standard way... and such a system can be prone to errors (or defect in templates) like a "G" engraved as "O"... btw, the "Germany" word seems to me is exactly of the same size/font as "GMBH" ... the posted pic is not so sharp (and worsen if enlarged, of course) but seems to me that even the "G" of GMBH isn't perfect... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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