Leica champion finally frustrated with Leica SL3, help!

[ALScott]

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I have been an ardent supporter of all things Leica since making a heavy investment into the system a little over a year ago starting with the Q3.  Moved to SL3 soon thereafter then M11P, then SL3-S and an embarrassing amount of lenses along the way.  This last weekend was the first time I truly felt let down by the system.  I was trying to shoot some deer and the AF would bounce like crazy making me completely miss some shots.  There was a shot with the yearlings below where one came up and nuzzled its mom and the camera completely blew it.  I was focused but had to move a bit to get the full shot I wanted and it bounce focus to nowhere land and I missed it.  It was bouncing focus more than it ever has before.  Where I am it's rare to see this and it completely blew the shot.  Also, on the shots frame to frame the focus is off just a bit, enough that I have focus on one shot but just off on the shot I really want where they are facing the same direction.  Blow it up and you can see.  In LrC all that has been done is crop and auto adjust.  Does anyone have tips on how to make the AF work better?  I was shooting in AF Field mode.  Thanks for the help.  I am so disappointed in how this went I was seriously considering dumping all SL for Sony and I really, really do not want to do that but this was ridiculous. These were shot with Sigma 15-600, same ISO, shutter speed and aperture.

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Edited 14 hours ago by ALScott

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[PhotoCruiser]

vor 1 Stunde schrieb ALScott:

I was shooting in AF Field mode.

AF would bounce like crazy 

This was most likely the problem as camera don't know where to focus on and hunted for a object to focus on, then long lens is probably making it worse.
Maybe i am old fashioned, but i use mostly spot AF to avoid what was your problem, but that does not work always.

You may try eye detection, deer have those big beautiful eyes and AF should be able to reliable lock on them.
Other AF programs can work also or better, test them throughly to find out what works best for you.

To not spend ours out in the field you may go to a zoo or use pets for conducting those tests.

Chris
 

[LocalHero1953]

I suspect Field AF is the culprit as well.

What do you mean 'bounce'? Do you mean hunting back and forth? The Field shouldn't be moving sideways.

Any reason for not using Animal Detection AF? I know it's supposedly beta, but I used it for the first time recently for rats, wolves and goats (Hallowe'en) and it worked OK. Your subjects don't look like they're moving fast, and eyes are visible.

If I wasn't using Animal, I would try Spot on the eye.

Edited 12 hours ago by LocalHero1953

[jaapv]

For wildlife shots like this I will always use spot focus, switch off animal detection,  and focus on the eye.  Or, when lazy, go to manual and magnification. Normally I will use Field only for day-today shooting, snapshots if you like and possibly Landscape.
The camera has no idea what you are trying to photograph - focus lies with the photographer, not the camera. 

[PhotoCruiser]

vor 11 Minuten schrieb jaapv:

The camera has no idea what you are trying to photograph - focus lies with the photographer, not the camera. 

Just wait,
soon first cameras with AI autofocus will show up and analize the actual scenery and consider what learned from previous photos and select the more correct mode.
😱

Chris
 

[jaapv]

Actually that is not the future but the present. 
https://petapixel.com/2023/09/12/fujifilm-gfx100-ii-shoots-at-8-fps-has-ai-af-and-records-8k-video/

[Stuart Richardson]

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Also, what ISO and aperture are you shooting at? The photos look really grainy and the colors are very muted by color noise reduction, which suggests to me that it was very dark. If I had to guess, you were at at least 6400. AF tends to struggle a bit in very low light, especially if you don't give it some guidance. In general I would recommend against field mode. It will just randomly target the thing with the most contrast in the field in front of it. In these images, you have branches of the pine saplings that have more contrast than the deer. As the others suggested, using a single AF box, spot AF or animal AF is likely to increase your hit rate. 

[Stuart Richardson]

1 hour ago, PhotoCruiser said:

Just wait,
soon first cameras with AI autofocus will show up and analize the actual scenery and consider what learned from previous photos and select the more correct mode.
😱

Chris
 

What do you mean soon? They have been doing that for years. Nikon introduced matrix metering in 1983, and that is essentially doing what you describe: comparing the scene the camera sees to thousands of example scenes pre-programmed in its memory and choosing the closest match. 

[Photoworks]

 I would like to talk more about to AF modes. What it has never addressed by Leica.

"AFs" only use contrast; in low light, this will not work well. From your photos, I assume you had a dark situation. It is best for well-lit situations and static.

"AFc" uses a combination of PHASE and CONTRAST; it is faster and can detect people and animals. It is more capable in low light!

[ALScott]

Thanks all!!!  Yes, by bounce I mean back and forth, in & out, etc, not up and down.  It was low light but in my mind the most contrasty thing in the frame was the deer against that background, obviously not to the camera AF.  I will now try spot AF and switch to AFc even though I do no care for the fuzzy EVF you get with that mode.  @Stuart RichardsonISO was actually 20000, f6.2, 1/250.

@Photoworks Great info, thank you!!

[tangosix]

For anything other than strong light, I still use Spot focus and the joystick with my thumb for money shots.  I actually practice on my couch at night so I can work it in the dark.  I find the results worth it, however I understand your frustration.  

Continue testing.  I like the questions being asked about pushing these limits.  

Edited 4 hours ago by tangosix

[jaapv]

AFc is not the best choice for more or less stationary animals (or moving in the same plane) in my experience. AFs+spot works best in my hands - by far. 

[PhotoCruiser]

vor 5 Stunden schrieb Stuart Richardson:

What do you mean soon?

I don't consider any kind of actual matrix/multizone/etc AF as AI, i would consider it as AI if the camera learns from the photographer where he (usually) want focus at.
EDIT: Well Fuji's new AI AF maybe.

Zitat

Recently featured in the Fujifilm APS-C X-H2 and X-H2S, the GFX100 II’s AI autofocus is developed using deep learning technology and updated with Fujifilm’s latest prediction AF algorithm.

Zitat

Actually that is not the future but the present. 
https://petapixel.com/2023/09/12/fujifilm-gfx100-ii-shoots-at-8-fps-has-ai-af-and-records-8k-video/

Oh, i was not aware that Fuji already presented a AI Autofocus, well then we are already in the future.

Chris

Edited 4 hours ago by PhotoCruiser

[jaapv]

BTW, just running it through Topaz Photo AI cleaned the shot up quite a bit.

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[Photoworks]

9 minutes ago, ALScott said:

Thanks all!!!  Yes, by bounce I mean back and forth, in & out, etc, not up and down.  It was low light but in my mind the most contrasty thing in the frame was the deer against that background, obviously not to the camera AF.  I will now try spot AF and switch to AFc even though I do no care for the fuzzy EVF you get with that mode.  @Stuart RichardsonISO was actually 20000, f6.2, 1/250.

@Photoworks Great info, thank you!!

Another choice would be to set your long lens to manual focus, in Customize Control > Joystick > MF Mode > AFc

. This way you have a camera that does back button focus when set in MF on the lens, and still have the benefit of phase AFc by pressing in the joystick to focus.

you can easly go back to full AF by the AF-MF of the sigma lens

[Jeff S]

Four cameras (3 different systems) and an “embarrassing amount” of lenses in just over a year, and you’re already considering switching to another brand.  Better IMO to be patient, learn your gear, and experiment with the full range of settings… and lots of practice…before drawing radical conclusions.

[Jonathan Levin]

Sometimes MF and smaller aperture rule. Especially If the deer were just “grazing” and staying in a small area. And set up joystick to focus and lock too. 

[CptSlevin]

23 minutes ago, jaapv said:

BTW, just running it through Topaz Photo AI cleaned the shot up quite a bit.

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I could wash my hands with this picture now.
Soapy!

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica L-Mount

[ALScott]

19 minutes ago, jaapv said:

BTW, just running it through Topaz Photo AI cleaned the shot up quite a bit.

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Thanks jaapv I would gladly do the same except I am shooting these with the intent of entering them in a statewide photo contest that is held each year.   The rules for submitting the photos include; "Over manipulation of the submitted photos, including the use of AI (artificial intelligence), may disqualify the images from placing in the contest."  It's a bit vague so I am unsure if I can do any noise reduction as all of it seems to be "AI noise reduction" now.

[ALScott]

9 minutes ago, Jeff S said:

Four cameras (3 different systems) and an “embarrassing amount” of lenses in just over a year, and you’re already considering switching to another brand.  Better IMO to be patient, learn your gear, and experiment with the full range of settings… and lots of practice…before drawing radical conclusions.

Sorry, I was joking.  Leica is stuck with me.  It was very frustrating in the moment though and my first time I had those issues shooting in similar situations.  I know all of my gear but also know there is always something more to learn or try, thus this post.  I have spent many hours watching deer in 50 years and know all too well that moment could end in a millisecond that I don't have fiddling with AF.  In the past I have used SL3-s in this area but wanted the 60mp this time as everything has required a pretty big crop due to distance and I hoped the SL3 would make a cleaner file, which it did, but OOF is OOF.  My bride has taken over the Q3 and loves it, no way is that changing.  Plus, all the other pics I took this past weekend that were beautiful as always.

Edited 4 hours ago by ALScott