Are Leica S-series lenses really the same as Thalia cine lenses?

[Tom001]

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Are the S series lenses the same as the Thalia movie lenses?

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[Stef63]

No.  They are only "based on Leica’s S medium format glass" but have among others a larger image circle, different coating, iris and there are also Thalia lenses with focal lengths that do not exist in the S-range. 

See the Thalia 20 mm official press release : https://www.leitz-cine.com/article/leitz-introduces-new-20mm-thalia-65-prime-lens

[Stuart Richardson]

Really frustrating that they never released the 55mm (or that 90mm) as an S lens, nor this 20mm. It makes you think what could have been if Leica had invested real effort and innovation into the S system beyond the first few years. 

[Jeff S]

I think the S system plans died when Pentax cut the MF digital price point by more than half, followed by Hasselblad and Fuji.  There was no competition initially, but that changed dramatically.  The SL system took an entirely different market approach. It will be interesting to see how the potential S4 might be positioned.

[Stuart Richardson]

Yes, not to mention the D800 and A7R coming out a year or so later with the same resolution and better low light performance for 1/8th the price. 

[BernardC]

44 minutes ago, Jeff S said:

I think the S system plans died when Pentax cut the MF digital price point by more than half, followed by Hasselblad and Fuji.  There was no competition initially, but that changed dramatically.  The SL system took an entirely different market approach. It will be interesting to see how the potential S4 might be positioned.

I don't think that the 645D was a direct competitor to the S. It didn't have the lenses (most were legacy film lenses), and it suffered from the same limitations as the contemporary Mamiya 645AFD and Hasselblad H: it was slow and clunky. I'm sure that a few amateurs cross-shopped them, but that wasn't Leica's target market. I moved from Mamiya to the S because the S system was better in every way (plus I found a new/demo body at a very competitive price).

The S system was basically done by the time the GFX and X1D came out. Sure, the S3 came out, but we had reached the limit of SLR focus accuracy (and no-one makes decent SLR PDAF modules anymore). Given the technological dead end, and the success of the SL, it made perfect sense to switch to a mirrorless design.

Back to the original question. Thalia lenses are "cinevised" S lenses. They have manual apertures and true manual focus, and they are housed in cine-style barrels. Other than that they seem to have the same optical designs as corresponding S lenses. It's a shame that S users never got access to some of the newer Thalia designs, but it makes sense when you realize that Thalias cost 10x more than S lenses.

[Jeff S]

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22 minutes ago, BernardC said:

The S system was basically done by the time the GFX and X1D came out. Sure, the S3 came out, but we had reached the limit of SLR focus accuracy (and no-one makes decent SLR PDAF modules anymore). Given the technological dead end, and the success of the SL, it made perfect sense to switch to a mirrorless design.

 

The beautiful OVF offered an appealing alternative for many, but not at more than double the price, or with the lens AF debacle. Some market issues, and some self-inflicted.

[BernardC]

The S was not designed to be "for many." It was price-competitive with its contemporaries (legacy film 645 systems with expensive digibacks), but times have changed. There's no point comparing its design philosophy with cameras designed a decade later.

The AF motor issue was unfortunate, but I don't think the system would still be in production if it had never happened. The S is still very usable, and has outstanding image quality, to this day. Let's hope the S4 lives as long.

[Stef63]

56 minutes ago, BernardC said:

The S is still very usable, and has outstanding image quality, to this day. Let's hope the S4 lives as long.

Very true, but I will truly miss that huge viewfinder that shows the real world through the lens and not a digital interpretation of it. 

[Doc_P]

vor 2 Stunden schrieb Stef63:

Very true, but I will truly miss that huge viewfinder that shows the real world through the lens and not a digital interpretation of it. 

So it is: The OVF of the S3 is an outstanding experience... Pure joy to use it, e.g. with the S24!

The master question is: Can Leica replicate their success with the viewfinder of the first gen SL (limited competition for some time) with the S4  with better resolution than the Fuji GFX II ?

[helged]

2 hours ago, Stef63 said:

Very true, but I will truly miss that huge viewfinder that shows the real world through the lens and not a digital interpretation of it. 

Plus the ergonomics of the S-body 👏... It simply feels comfortable and 'correct' in the hand (at least for me). One can only hope that the designers keep an eye to the alreday perfect shape factor of S-bodies, rather than swinging the axe as on the SL-bodies (sharp corners, so-so grip, etc).

And almost certainly, S4 will far from match the forever lifetime of S-batteries.

That being said; to use all sorts of existing lenses on S4 is interesting.

[Pieter12]

1 hour ago, helged said:

That being said; to use all sorts of existing lenses on S4 is interesting.

I can use all sorts of existing lenses on the S3. And IBIS is for wimps.

[John McMaster]

The other thing is S lenses do not rely on having software corrections, unlike all/most EVF lenses....

john