Camera traced from factory to owner! (long text!)

[PeLu]

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Dear all,

The camera I asked about in an earlier thread is indeed a K camera. Confirmed by Leica Archives and also from Jim Lager: "

"Not many of these are in collections. A rarely encountered item. 

We can only guess how it got to Sweden from Berlin"

 

Well now I have almost a complete answer. Only one peculiar question remains...

 

The camera was auctioned off from an estate after having spent 20 years in a box. Its owner was Göte Kilden, 1920–2005. Göte’s father, Oscar Kilden, was a merchant who ran Wetterlings paint shop in Jönköping. In addition to paint, they also sold cosmetics and perfumes, often imported from Germany. (Various chemicals were also imported to Sweden at that time — for paint production/solvents?)

Oscar Kilden was a successful businessman with strong finances, and together with his son Göte he frequently traveled to both Germany and Russia. They were impressed by these countries and conducted trade there. In 1936, Göte and Oscar attended the Olympic Games in Berlin.

Göte’s granddaughter recounted that trade continued even during the war. She believes the camera was a gift from Göte to his son. The camera is said to have been purchased during on one of his trips to Berlin (where Leica delivered it). But since trade was tightly regulated by both Sweden and Germany from 1942 onward, the purchase must have been difficult to carry out. The camera was delivered to Berlin in September 1942. At that time, special permits were required in Sweden. Meanwhile, cameras could not be sold on the civilian market in Germany. So how could a Swedish private individual have bought a Leica IIIc K in the middle of a war? One possibility was through the black market. Contacts within diplomatic or commercial networks could also have made it possible. IMaybe political contacts in Germany?

The goods that could obtain state import licenses to Sweden after 1942 included chemicals, optics, cameras, microscopes, etc. Perhaps the camera was imported officially, but in that case it should have come directly from Wetzlar. No documents exist to confirm how or where the camera was purchased. However, most certainly Oscar actually bought it new.

Göte left behind a huge number of photographs. According to the granddaughter, “boxfuls.” Perhaps further clues can be found there?

Im still waiting for the delivery of the camera. However, according to the seller, it has no K on the shutter.

 

I understand that a civilan provinces won’t effect its value but still its interesting. I would really appreciate any thoughts about this information specifically and also information about the trading with leicas in general during the war.

[PeLu]

I need to correct my self! The lady telling me the story was daughter of Göte! Quite important since she has first hand information to share. 

[willeica]

I have a camera, which was involved in another much bigger story, which had been delivered to Berlin on 3 April 1935. It came in a box with writing in Swedish, albeit with a different serial number at the back. I bought the camera from Sweden about 10 or 11 years ago 

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The translation is below, not mine and apologies for the layout.

 

1 the series (serien) numbers (nr) 1 & 2 Berlin the rest(övriga) Gothenberg(Göteborg)

2 the series (serien)Dendenberg(possibly city in Belgium?) The trip to (färden till)  England. numbers (nr) 1 & 2 the North Sea (Nordsjön) _?__May 19, 1935 the rest in (övriga i) England May 21st

3 the series (serien) Do (?) May 22Trent ParkMay 23Knaphill (?)May 23PetsworthMay 23Brenton Park (?)May 23High Down

4 May & June (maj o juni) 1935 Travellers Club  trip to (utfärd till) Bohse(?) _______historiska [trip to _____historical place](Kalmar - ___?__-___?___-Karlskrona) [Cities] Linnésällskapet (an organization - to preserve the work of scientist/botanist Carl Linnaeus http://www.linnaeus.se/)   (Stenbrohult, Råshult,____?____) [villages in south Sweden]

I have a photo somewhere showing the Crown Prince of Sweden at the tribute to Carl Linnaeus in June 1935. The important thing and relevant to your story is that a Leica bought in Berlin in 1935 was able to find its way to Gothenburg and then on to Britain in May 1935 and back to Sweden again for an important botanical event. I suspect the owner was a botanist.

I hope this makes sense.

The camera also featured in this story which got about 6 million reads in the Winter of 2020/1

https://www.macfilos.com/2020/09/11/swiss-roll-hidden-for-70-years-these-photographs-were-recovered-from-an-ancient-leica-film-cassette/

William 

 

 

 

 

[PeLu]

That is truly a fantastic story! Let me know if you suddenly get the idea to donate it back to Sweden….

no. Jokes aside. Truly amazing and something one can only dream about as a collector. Personally I’m just happy to know my cameras origin even if it’s unclear exactly how he bought it. 
 

Is it an urban legend that Leicas was smuggled from Germany via Denmark, Sweden and Norway to be shipped to UK? If so - do anyone know when and what cameras ended up in England that way? (Not that I think mine is from that origin)

Lots of exiting stuff happened in Sweden during the war. Sweden sold ore and iron to Germany and bought different kind of gods during the war. At the same time Swedish, American and UK secret organisation (and more countries as well) supported the allies based in Sweden For example they supported smuggling of weapons from Northern part of Sweden to the resistant movement in Norway. Smuggling was done by Same people who loaded their sleds behind reindeers and took it over the mountains. 

Would be interesting to know if something similar happen in the south with Leicas.

[250swb]

15 hours ago, PeLu said:

 

 

I understand that a civilan provinces won’t effect its value but still its interesting. I would really appreciate any thoughts about this information specifically and also information about the trading with leicas in general during the war.

Just a thought but since Sweden and Germany had extensive trade links during WWII with goods going back and forth, so could Kilden have been exporting paint to Germany? Like the ball bearings Sweden exported paint was also an essential part of the war effort and I guess it would give the manufacturer privileges in Germany?

Edited September 19 by 250swb

[PeLu]

Possibly so? I know a lot of chemicals were manufactured in Germany so I always presumed he was importing chemicals for production of paint in Sweden. Kilden had his own business but also was chairman for the regional trade board for business like his. So negotiating and importing would make sense. But maybe he was also a buyer? I know he bought make up and parfume from Germany to sell in his store.

Kilden was also visiting Russia a couple of times. Why there I have no idea. At the time they where not very easy to make successful business with. 

[jc_braconi]

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362344 Was shipped on September 28th, 1940 the place of delivery or recipient is not noted No service entry  Told by Leitz Wtzlar Sold in Italy in 1941, as the bill attests

 

[SpotmaticSP]

It would not be strange to find that only a delivery number was noted, but what the delivery number means will always be unknown (unless Leitz have kept that info in the archives too). I think we should be happy with what we already know. There are (almost) no other brands left with such delivery / service history!

[PeLu]

@willeica - you mention box and camera serial not matching. I have seen this with an M3 as well and my guess is that in the past they might not have been super concerned with details like this? I have the feeling (I admit it’s only a feeling) about the M3:s box that they where just accidentally matched. Not paired for good eBay listing. 
 

has this subject been discussed earlier and is there a general consensus on the subject box/camera serial?

[jc_braconi]

22 hours ago, SpotmaticSP said:

It would not be strange to find that only a delivery number was noted, but what the delivery number means will always be unknown (unless Leitz have kept that info in the archives too). I think we should be happy with what we already know. There are (almost) no other brands left with such delivery / service history!

They have information but limited in some, ex:

6416x was issued August 13th 1932 shipped to Cologne repair on August 17 1938 , September 29th 1955 and October 22nd 1957
19514x Was shipped on April 11th, 1936 to „Paris“. The recipient is not noted.No entry for repair.
32368x Was shipped on May 5th, 1939 to Stockholm the recipient is not noted No service entry 
43856x Was shipped on October 14th, 1948, German Press Service No entry for repair.
65966x Was shipped on September 10th, 1953 to Manila The camera was repaired on February 13th, 1964
The last date I got information is a MD from 1966 after that they said they do'nt have more information to deliver

[willeica]

4 hours ago, PeLu said:

@willeica - you mention box and camera serial not matching. I have seen this with an M3 as well and my guess is that in the past they might not have been super concerned with details like this? I have the feeling (I admit it’s only a feeling) about the M3:s box that they where just accidentally matched. Not paired for good eBay listing. 
 

has this subject been discussed earlier and is there a general consensus on the subject box/camera serial?

There is no set line to follow on this. Both cameras were sent to Berlin around the same time and at least one, possibly two, of them went to Sweden in 1935. I bought the camera and box together from Sweden around 2015, some 80 years later. Note the box has a layout for FILCA cassettes.

William 

[PeLu]

1 hour ago, willeica said:

There is no set line to follow on this. Both cameras were sent to Berlin around the same time and at least one, possibly two, of them went to Sweden in 1935. I bought the camera and box together from Sweden around 2015, some 80 years later. Note the box has a layout for FILCA cassettes.

William 

What is a filca-casette? : )

I have been offered an M3 with box and 2 different manuals + a brochure also in Swedish. It looks nice and seams like everything belongs together. Hence I wonder about box w. camera and non matching serials. They are approx xx3200 from each other.

 

[willeica]

2 hours ago, PeLu said:

What is a filca-casette? : )

They were the original reusable cassettes for loading 35mm film into Leicas. You had to load them from bulk film in the dark.

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In the 1930s the non reusable film cassette was introduced by Kodak and others. This was the forerunner of the 35mm film cassettes which we still have today.

FILCA = FILm CAssette

William 

[derleicaman]

Am I missing something here? Serial number on the camera would shed a lot of light here.

[PeLu]

2 minutes ago, derleicaman said:

Am I missing something here? Serial number on the camera would shed a lot of light here.

387219 k

Got it confirmed by Leica and by J Lager. But how the owner got hold of it is a bit unclear. I spent the whole day at the Swedish National Archives after being sent there by a group of former secret service employees. According to them the owner might have had involvement with German or Swedish secret service. I doubt it. I believe he got it from contacts among businessmen or diplomats during one of his travels to Germany. He was doing business and visiting Berlin (where it was delivered sept -42) even during the war.

I think the fact that he also was visiting russia and also was a member of the local police board made the retired spooks exited...   : )

[250swb]

28 minutes ago, PeLu said:

387219 k

Got it confirmed by Leica and by J Lager. But how the owner got hold of it is a bit unclear. I spent the whole day at the Swedish National Archives after being sent there by a group of former secret service employees. According to them the owner might have had involvement with German or Swedish secret service. I doubt it. I believe he got it from contacts among businessmen or diplomats during one of his travels to Germany. He was doing business and visiting Berlin (where it was delivered sept -42) even during the war.

I think the fact that he also was visiting russia and also was a member of the local police board made the retired spooks exited...   : )

Right, so he wasn't James Bond.

[PeLu]

1 hour ago, 250swb said:

Right, so he wasn't James Bond.

Hahaha.... Not sure yet. I must say I would love to have a story like that confirmed!

But as of now I haven't seen his name on any papers. As of now the only thing I have seen is a note in the head of "General Security Board" in- and outgoing matters referring to a spy in the town he was situated. However - if there are any connections to any security agency it most probably is very much less dramatic than any "James Bond" stunts. Fact is that during the war lots and lots of people where recruited as informants. Among them people working in railway stations, boarder control, Vice presidents of companies doing import/export, Ship commanders reporting back to our authorities how much ice there where in different foreign harbors, how many ships/submarins they could se. Traveling business men were interviewed about the status of the trade and industry. (Fact is a group of academics and businessmen where put together as an advisory board.

So if, IF(!), I can establish that he visited Germany during the war (as his relatives say) I would be very surprised if he didn't get interviewed about his observations. Would that explain how he lay hands on the camera? Absolutely not. But it would make the family claim that he got it new from Berlin believable.

Anyway this is a fun exercise learning how to search old archives. And even before laying hands on the classified archives I have learned a lot about Swedish politics during the war. I have certainly followed discussions ongoing to this day about our behavior during WW2 but I couldn't imagine the level of double-dealing going on in the first years...

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Edited September 23 by PeLu