Leica M11: Is the 60MP Sensor Worth the Hype?

[o2mpx]

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For me only, I’ve held off upgrading to the M11 from the M10-r and using M lenses with a SL3. 

My use case is travel landscapes only, and prefer to travel light so no L Mount zooms. Given M primes only, the 60mp is useful for crops as primes don’t have the zoom’s benefit to achieve the exact framing, and zooming with feet don’t solve the problem most of the time.

Not debating the perspectives are different once cropped, and how the M lenses don’t perform on any other body other than a M, but the SL3 offers an EVF and ibis, which are useful for me. 

So far happy with the SL3 and holding off on any L Mount lenses. When used prices on M11 begins to drop, particularly on the Glossy Black, perhaps…

[BWColor]

I only have the M11M, but I do have an A7CR with high resolution.  I mainly make 12”x12” travel albums and large wall prints.  I’ve noticed an improvement in my print quality since my 24Mpix days.  That said, my favorite large print of all time is from 35mm film.  So, that certainly brings to question my assertion that higher MP is better.

If the question was with regard to the SL3, the quest for high pixel count just got a bit more complicated.  After all, why stop at 60MP?

[pgh]

12 hours ago, BWColor said:

So, that certainly brings to question my assertion that higher MP is better

Just brings to the fore what is often forgotten. A good photograph to start with matters infinitely more than ever increasing pixel counts. The problem is that those are in painfully short supply for everyone I’ve ever met, even those who make it their livelihood. 😃 

Edited September 9 by pgh

[BWColor]

8 hours ago, pgh said:

Just brings to the fore what is often forgotten. A good photograph to start with matters infinitely more than ever increasing pixel counts. The problem is that those are in painfully short supply for everyone I’ve ever met, even those who make it their livelihood. 😃 

This is certainly true here.  I rarely produce noteworthy images.  The strange thing about this one is that it was taken with high iso 35mm film.  I don’t expect extreme resolution from this pairing.  It was taken using an RTSiii and I do believe that there is something to their vacuum film plate.  I can’t really show what I mean due to the limits of the images posted on this forum, but I will try to link to the image.  I can’t explain the resolution and tonality based upon the use of relatively high ISO 35mm film.

Image

Edited September 9 by BWColor
Addition

[pgh]

4 hours ago, BWColor said:

This is certainly true here.  I rarely produce noteworthy images.  The strange thing about this one is that it was taken with high iso 35mm film.  I don’t expect extreme resolution from this pairing.  It was taken using an RTSiii and I do believe that there is something to their vacuum film plate.  I can’t really show what I mean due to the limits of the images posted on this forum, but I will try to link to the image.  I can’t explain the resolution and tonality based upon the use of relatively high ISO 35mm film.

Image

Regardless, it doesn’t look like it’s the resolution that draws you to the image. Or at least not to my mind. 

So many amazing pictures on 35mm film without a lot of resolution, that wouldn’t really be any better with more resolution - still plenty to command attention in an A2 size print or spread of an book etc. 

[Steve Ash]

The reason why I upgraded to 60mp (M11M) was that I needto upscale the images in case I print and A2 size. In this respect to upgrade to the M11 in order to fully utilize the capabilities of my Epson P800.

[Jeff S]

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8 hours ago, Steve Ash said:

The reason why I upgraded to 60mp (M11M) was that I needto upscale the images in case I print and A2 size. In this respect to upgrade to the M11 in order to fully utilize the capabilities of my Epson P800.

I find the M10M fully capable of superb A2 prints, using LR and ImagePrint software.  The switch from the also capable P800 to the P900 has proved valuable for me by allowing seamless switching between photo and matte black inks (and the added Violet ink is nice).  I avoided black switching on the P800 (and 3800), and now realize what I was missing for selected images.  IP also makes switching a breeze, with custom profiles for virtually all papers.

[Steve Ash]

vor 2 Stunden schrieb Jeff S:

I find the M10M fully capable of superb A2 prints, using LR and ImagePrint software.  The switch from the also capable P800 to the P900 has proved valuable for me by allowing seamless switching between photo and matte black inks (and the added Violet ink is nice).  I avoided black switching on the P800 (and 3800), and now realize what I was missing for selected images.  IP also makes switching a breeze, with custom profiles for virtually all papers.

Hello Jeff, thanks for your reply that I actually expected and hoped for due to the topic  . I have printed images of my M10 even at A0 size via service providers and have been fully satisfied. The upscaling topic before printing is most likely a „mental issue“ only and I cannot claim to see it with my eyes. So I can confirm what you are saying. Regarding ImagePrint I had a try some time ago because of your recommendations here but to be honest I was somehow overwhelmed by its capabilities. Thus I opted for a less capable but easy software https://dinax.com/mirage-2/?lang=en. 

[Jeff S]

48 minutes ago, Steve Ash said:

Hello Jeff, thanks for your reply that I actually expected and hoped for due to the topic  . I have printed images of my M10 even at A0 size via service providers and have been fully satisfied. The upscaling topic before printing is most likely a „mental issue“ only and I cannot claim to see it with my eyes. So I can confirm what you are saying. Regarding ImagePrint I had a try some time ago because of your recommendations here but to be honest I was somehow overwhelmed by its capabilities. Thus I opted for a less capable but easy software https://dinax.com/mirage-2/?lang=en. 

I use a small fraction of IP’s capabilities… but easy peasy for what I use it for, which is a key reason to have it.

[pgh]

I was going to say - if A2 is the goal, which is about as large as I go normally, then I think actually even the M9 holds up well - and I regularly print that from my m10 without thinking twice. Even camera scanned images of 400 speed 35mm film do quite nicely at this size (you can see grain, yes, it’s not a bad thing). Back when I was a printer intern we made a whole show of A2 sized images of Jim Nachtwey’s Agent Orange work from grainy b/w film, scanned on an Imacon. Tri-x if I can remember but I am not sure. Anyways, whatever interpolation we did wasn’t a problem because like with most good pictures, the image - if it’s good - will, as a whole, transcend the fine detail rendering. 

Anyways, I’ve been happy to print my M10 files even A1 size too. Maybe not every file, but a technically well shot one (some good pictures are not technically good enough for such a print - it’s a dance, too poor technically can overpower what could have been good)

[Jeff S]

1 hour ago, pgh said:

I was going to say - if A2 is the goal, which is about as large as I go normally, then I think actually even the M9 holds up well - and I regularly print that from my m10 without thinking twice.

Prints from my M8.2 demonstrate this. 

Of course a smartphone can print acceptable billboard size, provided the viewing distance is great enough.

[pgh]

2 hours ago, Jeff S said:

Prints from my M8.2 demonstrate this. 

Of course a smartphone can print acceptable billboard size, provided the viewing distance is great enough.

I don’t love prints from my m8 this big, the line for me is somewhere in between I guess, but that’s the thing. It’s really not a big deal in the end. For me considered viewing distance is always in a personal / intimate setting like a gallery or home. A2’s are approachable, but it is true that large prints in these spaces sometimes are displayed in ways where they’re not as approachable. Lots of smartphones now out resolve or at least compete with the M8 (sort of, in very good light) in terms of perceived resolution - though I still much prefer the look of the M8 generally.

Anyways, for me it all comes down to me not totally relating to or really understanding the ideal use case for the 60mp sensor in an M camera, which is in my use a faster/looser/mobile tool - not the sort of camera that demands the sort of practice that typical high resolution photography usually entails (landscape, studio portraiture, etc) - but I get that most owners seem to love it. I

mean, it does a great job with landscape, just the form factor is not the ideal thing for such a sensor IMO. To circle back to the initial post, it is a great sensor, worth the hype in terms of image quality, maybe it found the wrong home in an M body.

[Jeff S]

24 minutes ago, pgh said:

I don’t love prints from my m8 this big, the line for me is somewhere in between I guess, but that’s the thing. It’s really not a big deal in the end. For me considered viewing distance is always in a personal / intimate setting like a gallery or home. A2’s are approachable, but it is true that large prints in these spaces sometimes are displayed in ways where they’re not as approachable. Lots of smartphones now out resolve or at least compete with the M8 (sort of, in very good light) in terms of perceived resolution - though I still much prefer the look of the M8 generally.

Anyways, for me it all comes down to me not totally relating to or really understanding the ideal use case for the 60mp sensor in an M camera, which is in my use a faster/looser/mobile tool - not the sort of camera that demands the sort of practice that typical high resolution photography usually entails (landscape, studio portraiture, etc) - but I get that most owners seem to love it. I

mean, it does a great job with landscape, just the form factor is not the ideal thing for such a sensor IMO. To circle back to the initial post, it is a great sensor, worth the hype in terms of image quality, maybe it found the wrong home in an M body.

Depends on the pic, the user and the process.

That said I typically prefer smallish prints by today’s standards, again depending on the specific image.  An A4, or even much smaller, print of a suitable subject can often be satisfying.  I’m not in the “bigger is better” camp, either for my own pics or for those I’ve collected over the years.

[costa43]

60mp is more than I'll ever need as I dont crop heavy, usually just to straighten up or change aspect ratio and I either post online or print to a3/a3+ max.  I've not really noticed any downsides in having it though so i'll take it for the rare occassion I may want to blow up a print or crop heavily. Shutter speed minimums are a little higher than my M9 was but the same as my M10R. I can happily shoot it at 1/30th and get usable images, even 1/15th if focused and before my 3rd coffee of the day.

Can't see the megapixel race changing anytime soon though, It's the way of the world. The MP is too strong a marketing play by the manufacturers for them to revert back to lower resolution bodies in the M line up, unfortunately people see higher MP as better image quality which is somewhat of a falsehood. I can only see it being reduced in certain scenarios where sensor read out speed is massively improved. Maybe if/when the M gets a global shutter. 

Edited September 22 by costa43