Viewing 35mm frame lines and wider

[rjpra2]

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On the m11-p - Anyone else bc of contacts/astigmatism have trouble looking through viewfinder and comfortably seeing 35mm frame lines ?

I can see 50mm lines comfortably. I'm trying to decide if it's a dealbreaker for me to keep the m11-p safari. It has a 10% restocking fee from glazers camera.

I wouldnt be able to see 28mm as my eye and viewfinder cuts out the edges.

How do you guys  deal w that?

[S Maclean]

I wear glasses. For some time I had a diopter in the view finder but I got tired of taking my glasses on an off so I just look through the viewfinder with my glasses. As a result I do not see all the frame lines.

However, I've had little trouble with it becasue after a while you just know what the "crop" is anyway.  If there is a time when I am not sure (like using a 28, which is not the most common FL for me)  I just ake a minute to look at where the frame lines are and comparing them to a shot in the LCD.  Just shoose a scene where you can clearly place an object or two within the frame lines.  after doing that I know with some certainty what the perspective is (or more accurately the coverage) and I can focus and recompose freely.

A couple of other things to note on rangefinder real time use.

• A lot of OVF (M) images have the focus on the center becasue that's where the focus window is in the OFV. Particularly with longer focal lengths. Of course, this depends on the photographers choice, but look at 85-90% of the images of M cameras online and you'll see the main subject is most often in or around center. The many exceptions tothis statement are often zone focused or hyperfocal shots.  This said, with a little practice it is not difficult to re-compose (more dificult with very wide apertures, as just the movement of your head or camera can change the distance, if minimally. Which a summilux at 1.4 will punish you for)
• With wider lenses it is easier to zone focus or use Hyperfocus, allowing for much more flexibility on composition. In this case you just have to be familiar with your lens and focal length. Most M photographers develop a very fast intuitive sense of what a 35, 50, or 75 give them when looking at a scene, before the camera goes up.
• In the case of a 28, at least for me, and as you mentioned, the lines are right at the edge of the frame, so i calculate the frame as being the shot.  If there is a small miss there most of the time it is not enought to affect the shot or it can be cropped slightly. A lot of my best 28 and specially 21mm images are taken without even looking through the rangefinder and using zone focusing.  Or using the rangefinder to get my zone focus threshholds clear and then once set just using the camera as a point and shoot.
• With an M, if it really matters on wide FL (architectural, landscape etc) you can use an external OVF or EVF or the LCD screen.  If you feel en EVF or LCD assist is not art of your M ethos get an external OVF for those super wide shots.
• Last point, rent the M for a day or two before pulling the trigger if you have any doubts. Not just becasue of your eyesight, but becasue M shooting is adictive and fun....or it is ackward and cumbersome. Not worth throusands of dollars if you can test it first. Not just at the store, but walking around.

Edited July 2 by S Maclean

[ldhrads]

I wear glasses, and have astigmatism. There is an add-on from a guy in South Africa that can correct for astigmatism if that's the issue. It's not a diopter, but attaches in a similar fashion. I just can't remember the name of it...perhaps someone else will. It was a little fiddly, but worked, I used it on my M9.  These days I just push my glasses up to the viewfinder and shoot. I shoot a lot more 28 and 35, I used to shoot 50 a lot more, so the issue is certainly more for me now as far as framing. But I chimp the image and adjust as necessary. I have a visoflex, which is another option for you, It's great...but I'm a decided minimalist so I often go without. In fact, I've recently been shooting 21mm and while it's not perfect without the visoflex, I can get a decent idea of what I'm shooting frame wise and focusing is not an issue.

[rjpra2]

@S Macleanthanks. Do the external optical viewfinders cause parallax error, so best used zone focused ?

[Guest]

I have varifocal lenses (short and long sighted) and my experiences are similar. I prefer using a diopter, but even that's not perfect as focus is not perfect if the focal distance is short.

I sometimes use only glasses, but the crop lines can be difficult to fully see at 35mm and my glasses are often not as clean as they should be!

I also have a visoflex, but I don't really like using it as the tip of my nose ends up fitting into the viewfinder and smearing the diopter.

It will always be a compromise if you have sight issues, but you get used to it! Certainly try before you buy!

[S Maclean]

Same with my, I have progressive, so I have to figure out for a second what the exact spot is where my view is good.  Not too much of an issue, if the area around the focus window is clear I’m on point.  Many times, even without glasses I can focus fast just on contrast.

The light lens lab variable diopter is brilliant as you can set it fast for glasses or no glasses. Otherwise, if using a 1.4 it allows me to use the upper part of my glasses (which have a lesser prescription.  Without anything I’m middle or lower part. I prefer upper.

I have a LOT of glasses, some for middle distance and some for all day use, different sizes etc, so the exact point of clarity varies.  But it is an automatic adjustment once you get used to it. I don’t have to think about it at all, really.  

Unless I am taking a super critical focus shot or am tired….But that’s probably true for anyone, and that’s when the SL3 or the Q come to the rescue.

[Mute-on]

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I wear varifocals and can’t comfortably see the 35mm framelines, but get enough of an idea that I know where they start and finish.  I’ve also used 28mm and really can’t see more than one top or side at once. I just look around the perimeter to get an idea where the framelines are, and use one side or a corner as a reference.

I’ve been using Ms long enough to know and accept that the framelines are not that accurate at best, and only really at certain focussing distances. I just loosen up my framing to compensate. Always better to have a little more in frame and crop than miss some important element.  Don’t expect SLR like framing accuracy unless you use a visoflex or the rear screen, which sort of defeats the purpose of using an M. If you need perfect framing, use an SLR or EVF. For everything else, the M is more than sufficiently accurate, even if you can’t comfortably see the 35mm framelines (my favourite focal length). 

Edited July 2 by Mute-on

[earleygallery]

18 minutes ago, rjpra2 said:

@S Macleanthanks. Do the external optical viewfinders cause parallax error, so best used zone focused ?

Any external viewfinder will have 'parallax error' (unless there is a correction function as with some of the early Leica finders) but with wider lenses and if not shooting close up, it's minimal. Just focus as with the rangefinder and compose with the shoe mounted finder. 

[Guest]

10 minutes ago, S Maclean said:

...

The light lens lab variable diopter is brilliant as you can set it fast for glasses or no glasses. 

...

Do you have a link to the Light Lens Lab variable diopter that you use please?

I did think about getting the magnifying variable diopter that they sell, but it appears that it's really only useable on lenses > 50mm.

[S Maclean]

10 minutes ago, Corius said:

Do you have a link to the Light Lens Lab variable diopter that you use please?

I did think about getting the magnifying variable diopter that they sell, but it appears that it's really only useable on lenses > 50mm.

That’s the one. It is geared towards >50, very usable with 35. Bellow that you just have to go with your gut a little bit. But, again, <28 is easier for me to compose, or more forgiving. Specially 21 which is really my favorite wider lens for street etc (still getting more acquainted with the 28 but I end up cropping most of the shots. Not an M thing, it happened with the Q2 as well…not as much with the Q43. I actually like 28 when I see images taken by others but I default to shooting 21, 35, 50 etc or 75/90 (Used to love the 100 when I used Canon)

[S Maclean]

back to the OP questions.

 

Check these two options for Optical vF 

 

https://www.popflash.com/viewfinders/voigtlander-21/25mm-black-metal-viewfinder-ii-usa-new/

https://www.popflash.com/viewfinders/light-lens-lab-sbloo-black-35mm-bright-line-viewfinder-new/

[JNK100]

As others have said, I strongly suggest you rent or borrow the set-up before spending so much money. The M is perhaps not the first camera to think of if you have any issues with your sight. The Q3 would be a much better purchase in my view.

[BWColor]

Have your doctor fit you with contact lenses, then you don’t need any further correction to easily see the 35mm frame, or continue with glasses, but if you are older and wear progressive lenses, then transition to lined bifocals with the line rather low.  This give you a very large are for distance viewing.  It doesn’t solve the issue of lens relief, but it isn’t difficult to know where the 35mm frame should be once you have experience with the camera and lens.  The fact that you are asking this questions makes me think that you are new to rangefinders, in which case you need to decide if you are going to tough it out and overcome your issues, or just admit that the camera isn’t for you and view the 10% as a rental fee.

[spydrxx]

All good advice. Mine is simplistic....adapt or get an optical viewfinder. Voigtlander makes a VERY  good one. I've also made a very small one from a discarded charity shop camera for use on my smaller camera Barnack camera bodies.

[S Maclean]

7 hours ago, rjpra2 said:

@S Macleanthanks. Do the external optical viewfinders cause parallax error, so best used zone focused ?

I actually have never used one, but I am guessing they don't if they are for the focal length you're using.  They exist for 18, 21, 28, 35 etc.  That said, I have never used one.  Closest i got was the goggles on the 50 DR lens, but even that for that it was esier to use the visioflex.  The optical ones are more of an option for photographers that really want to get away from any digital screen

[S Maclean]

Here's a little quick trick for the OP when shooting 28mm:

As was discussed the frame lines on 28mm are pretty much att he border of the viewfinder, so with glasses  you won't see them unless you look for them. BUT....the next frame lines in view  are aproximately at 1/3 and 2/3. So, if you like to compose on rule of thirds, or even golden ratio, you just have to work on that visual.

with a little practice you start making similar equations on other focal lengths.

M shooting is really, really simple...if you don't get too heady about it.

Edited July 3 by S Maclean

[misteracng]

Without glasses you can get your eye up close and in that way you can see all the lines of the viewfinder. With glasses for the .72 mag 35 is almost fully seen, but 50mm is easy, .58mag 35mm is easy, 28mm almost. The M3 is at .91 is actually easy to see the 50mm lines, it’s really the best finder for 50 and above

[Jewl]

I have glasses and was also thinking this could get a problem. Sure you can‘t see all of the lines in general but for me that is not so critical. I move a little if I need to check what is at the border(s) etc. but in most cases it just works. Of course you cannot see what is moving into the frame as the viewfinder is often advertised but that has not worked for me with 35mm either. 

[albireo_double]

I use the correction ocular and move my glasses up or down when focusing and framing the shot. Same thing with cameras that have adjustable diopter in the viewfinder. I just can't accept the compromise of not seeing the entire image frame due to my glass rims getting in the way. Plus also, in the Summer, I usually wear sunglasses or Transitions and these would darken the image in the viewfinder for me too much anyway.

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[Kiwimac]

I can see 35 no trouble. 28 not really - at least not all at once. My subjects are most often in the centre so it’s not usually an issue. 
 

If I really do need to accurately frame I’ll use the rear screen but that’s not common. 
 

I no longer wear glasses or contacts. I had differential LASIK 6 or 7 years ago and it was the best money I’ve ever spent!