Buying my first Leica

[IkarusJohn]

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8 hours ago, goks said:

I narrowed down my search to M10 and M10-R thanks to all these posts in this thread. Is resolution a really big issue? M10 is way cheaper than M10-R and I wonder if it's worth paying an extra grand for it. 

Good choice.

For your first lens, think about which focal length you use most, and just get one lens.  Some like 28mm (a bit more drama), the 38mm (a classic single lens) or the 50mm (standard from the M3).  I’m a 50 guy, really, but if I was getting just one lens, I think I would go for a 35mm Summicron.  I use the APO version (expensive and hard to get) and I love it.

Have a look in the photo threads here - there are a lot on “which 35”.

If it were me, my three choices for a starter lens would be the 50 Summilux ASPH (the first version) or either of the new versions of the 35 or 28 Summicron ASPH (I had the first versions of each, and they didn’t do it for me).  There’s lots on the forum - just go digging and you’ll get thte idea pretty quickly.

[FranzK60]

I was in the same situation a couple of weeks ago. M11 or M10R. Finally, better battery life, USB-C, internal storage, better sensor and processor, better connectivity etc. convinced me to buy the M 11 with a Voigtländer 50mm APO lanthar lense. I have no issues with the camera and the lense is great. But, that's me. 

[steinknies]

One more vote for the M11 - my (personal) biggest advantage is that you can shoot at 1/16000s (vs 1/4000s on most of the previous M cameras) using the electronic shutter. As I love to use fast lenses wide open at daytime and don’t want to carry and swap ND filters, that was my dealbreaker. 

[evikne]

13 hours ago, goks said:

I narrowed down my search to M10 and M10-R thanks to all these posts in this thread. Is resolution a really big issue? M10 is way cheaper than M10-R and I wonder if it's worth paying an extra grand for it. 

The M10-P is an excellent choice if you don't want to go for one of the later models. If I had to recommend two lenses to start with, it would be the 50mm Summicron f/2 and/or the 28mm Elmarit f/2.8. Both are very good and versatile (and relatively affordable for Leica lenses). They are also easy to buy second-hand. If they suit you, you could live your whole life with just these.

Edited June 24 by evikne

[jaapv]

13 hours ago, goks said:

I narrowed down my search to M10 and M10-R thanks to all these posts in this thread. Is resolution a really big issue? M10 is way cheaper than M10-R and I wonder if it's worth paying an extra grand for it. 

Decide whether you really want a high-MP camera. Yes, there is an advantage in croppability and it helps for extremely large prints, and there may be a subtle improvement in transitions, but there are drawbacks as well. People have problems with motion blur, need to use faster shutter speeds for handholding (the M has no IBIS), technical flaws like OOF purple fringing are more visible, etc. For me the ideal MP count for maximum image quality in daily use  is 24 MP.  

[ta3583]

vor 5 Minuten schrieb jaapv:

Überlegen Sie, ob Sie wirklich eine Kamera mit hoher MP-Zahl wollen. Ja, die Zuschneidemöglichkeit bietet Vorteile und hilft bei extrem großen Ausdrucken. Auch die Übergänge können sich geringfügig verbessern, aber es gibt auch Nachteile. Manche Fotografen haben Probleme mit Bewegungsunschärfe, müssen kürzere Verschlusszeiten für Aufnahmen aus der Hand verwenden (die M hat kein IBIS), technische Mängel wie OOF-Purpursäume sind deutlicher sichtbar usw. Für mich liegt die ideale MP-Zahl für maximale Bildqualität  im Alltag   bei 24 MP. 

Don't be afraid of high MP! We've also photographed children playing at 250 before. The shutter speed depends on the subject and not on the camera's MP (my opinion).

[pgh]

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15 minutes ago, ta3583 said:

Don't be afraid of high MP! We've also photographed children playing at 250 before. The shutter speed depends on the subject and not on the camera's MP (my opinion).

It depends on both. The issue with the m11 isn’t that sometimes you need to shoot 1/250. It’s that something around there is the floor for consistently sharp images (depending on lens used and hand steadiness).
 

For me personally, I am good to shoot 50 mm at a floor of 1/60 on my M10. On my m10Mono it’s 1/125 but I’ll shoot 1/180 if I can. . The m11 it’s 1/180 minimum but I’d rather be 1/250.
 

This all regardless of subject matter. If I shoot 1/60 at 50mm on an m11, there’s a pretty good chance I’ve ruined the picture camera shake. It’s mild, won’t see it on LCD. Definitely see it on the computer. 
 

This takes away from the ISO advantage in a meaningful way in many situations. 

[jaapv]

Not afraid, but a waste of money for everyday photography without benefit. Putting the money towards a better lens will improve your photography more, and you will avoid the complaints voiced all over the Internet. Marketing is carefully exploiting our more=better instinct.

Yes, there are situations that a high MP count is an advantage, similar to medium format being an advantage (without the drawbacks of cramming immense numbers of minuscule pixels on a small FF sensor), but for mere mortals it is overkill in 99 % of cases. 

[jaapv]

2 minutes ago, pgh said:

It depends on both. The issue with the m11 isn’t that sometimes you need to shoot 1/250. It’s that something around there is the floor for consistently sharp images (depending on lens used and hand steadiness).
 

For me personally, I am good to shoot 50 mm at a floor of 1/60 on my M10. On my m10Mono it’s 1/125 but I’ll shoot 1/180 if I can. . The m11 it’s 1/180 minimum but I’d rather be 1/250.
 

This all regardless of subject matter. If I shoot 1/60 at 50mm on an m11, there’s a pretty good chance I’ve ruined the picture camera shake. It’s mild, won’t see it on LCD. Definitely see it on the computer. 
 

This takes away from the ISO advantage in a meaningful way in many situations. 

Not just camera shake, also subject motion...

[pgh]

Just now, jaapv said:

Not just camera shake, also subject motion...

Well yes but that seems to be something people are generally more aware of. Need faster speed for moving subjects. But I’m saying that even if I’m making a picture of a William Eggleston tricycle I need to use the shutter speed id use with kids running around if I’m on an m11. And m10, I wouldn’t. 

[So was Red]

34 minutes ago, jaapv said:

...People have problems with motion blur, need to use faster shutter speeds for handholding (the M has no IBIS), technical flaws like OOF purple fringing are more visible, etc. For me the ideal MP count for maximum image quality in daily use  is 24 MP.  

Will choosing a lower in-camera resolution, say 18 megapixels in the M11, help mitigate motion blur?

[jaapv]

Users do not agree on this for the following reason:

Theoretically no, as the visibility of motion blur is caused not by the number of pixels but by the size and packing density of the pixels and you need at least two pixels to record blur. The physical properties of the sensor will not change if you reduce the MP count digitally. 
However viewing an in-camera digitally reduced resolution image at 100% will result in a lower magnification which will reduce the visibility of the existing blur.
Viewing a full resolution image at say 50% in the computer will also result in a lesser visibility in the same way through the lesser magnification. 
In fact you are doing the same in the camera or the computer so it has no real advantage. The blur is still there but you are reducing the visibility by magnifying less.

But, if you use a sensor with a lower pixel count, the pixels will be wider spaced, so they will not be able to record the blur. You won't even see it if you extrapolate to 200%. The same with OOF purple blooming (branches against the sky) The pixels will be further apart, thus less crosstalk thus less blooming.

[o2mpx]

Have always struggled with having the optimal framing SOOC due to style of shooting being on the move landscapes typically on hikes/walks with a group, not lending any time for pause/compose. In such a use case, croppability enabled by a high mp sensor + denoise functionality from LR/DXO/Topaz provides a wider latitude for use of higher shutter speeds for a camera without ibis.

My calculation could be off but cropping a 24mp file taken with the 50mm to a 75mm equivalent (don't own the focal length, after the 50, next lens is the 90) would likely net something at 10mp (or less than 10 for a 21 to 35 as I don't own a 28). Yes, the solution could be don't print large, or add interim focal lengths, or walk with feet (not possible when terrain doesn't allow getting closer) and have received criticisms that a cropped 50 isn't the same as native 75 etc., but for my use case, a higher resolution sensor does provide benefits above, plus reduce number of lenses/weight on long hikes.

[costa43]

24mp is my preference too and an SL2S sensor in a new M would be well received by me but I can’t see Leica going back there with the m12. The M10 is a great camera but a base ISO of 200 is a niggle for me now that I’m used to ISO64 and shooting wide open in sunny conditions. 

[goks]

hey all! I got myself a m10p - I'm very excited about it, thank you so much for all your advice here!

what's the ideal lens for m10p? (I guess questions never end when it comes to Leica  )

Edited June 24 by goks

[hillavoider]

2 hours ago, goks said:

hey all! I got myself a m10p - I'm very excited about it, thank you so much for all your advice here!

what's the ideal lens for m10p? (I guess questions never end when it comes to Leica  )

well done

what's your budget😆

[goks]

3 minutes ago, hillavoider said:

well done

what's your budget😆

I think I can go up to $1500

[Jeff S]

2 hours ago, goks said:

what's the ideal lens for m10p? (I guess questions never end when it comes to Leica  )

Lots of good suggestions above.

[goks]

what do you all think about the advice: "if you re using leica, go wide" ? I'm thinking 28mm but not sure if it's a good first timer lens.

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Hallo,

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[pgh]

Leica works better wide than with telephoto, but as it’s been stated the sweet spot tends to be 28-50mm. Longer than that, the focus gets a little tougher to nail, shorter than that the viewfinder won’t cut it.

It’s hard to recommend a first lens when we don’t know what sort of pictures you want to make.

That said, 28mm is a bit of a specialty lens. It’s just wide enough to be quite noticeable as a wide angle lens and is less versatile. It’s often poorly used in general contexts IMO and takes a different level of skill to really utilize well with consistency (winogrand and lee Friedlander are good examples of using the lens well). For many average users, so much wasted space. After students get out the novelty of using a wide angle lens I encourage them to move to a 35 or a 50 until they can stop wasting so much space. For most who care about craft and composition they take a long time before going back if they ever do - the skill takes years after all.

35mm and 50mm lenses are much more versatile for general photography - 50mm if you’re going to do more portraits, 35 if you’re going to do more landscape/place pictures - though it can still do nicely for horizontal portraits. Vertical portraits are much better suited by a 50mm. 

For me, I first got a 50mm summicron then a 35mm one. But 50mm suits me a little better for general purposes than 35.

Older ones are fine.