LLL recreation of the Angénieux 50mm f1.5 S21 is now open for orders...

[pippy]

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Just received this e-mail;

https://lightlenslab.com/blogs/upcoming-project/light-lens-lab-50mm-f-1-5-z21-now-available

According to the Collectiblend site an original in mint condition will set one back $15,000(*) or thereabouts so for anyone hankering after the rendering of the S21 the LLL Z21 might be an appealing option. I suspect that at least one member who is a frequent contributor to the 'Old Glass' topic has an interest in this project.

Not sure that the 'film' images in the link do any lens justice - quite frankly I think they are rubbish - but perhaps that's just me?

Philip.

* Collectiblend link; https://collectiblend.com/Lenses/Angénieux/50mm-f1.5-Type-S21-(Leica-M).html

[Kiwimac]

Odd looking beast isn’t it?

[pippy]

2 minutes ago, Kiwimac said:

Odd looking beast isn’t it?

Yes; it is a bit!

Being on their mailing-list I've been following this story for some short while. In all honesty I had absolutely no idea what an 'S21' was but through conversation with the member alluded to above I started to become more interested. Although $15,000 for an original M-mount S21 in mint condition might(!) sound a bit steep that price is bargain-basement in comparison to a lens in similar condition in LTM-mount;

https://collectiblend.com/Lenses/Angénieux/50mm-f1.5-Type-S21-(M39).html

I terms of the 'Visual Aspect'? The looks have really grown on me to the point where I rather think it would make for a gorgeous pairing both with my M-D Typ-262 (which is Black-Paint) as well as my Silver-Chrome M Monochrom. A bit weird, perhaps, but I quite like 'weird'.

Goodness knows I don't require another 'Fast 50' and I'd very much like to see further images from the Z21 before forming a decision on whether I even like its rendering or not. Were 'Nervous Jittery Boke wide-open' to be the sole aim I already have that comprehensibly covered by an f1.5 Summarit......😸.....

Hopefully someone who has plenty of experience with Angénieux lenses and their qualities will be along later to offer some personal insights.

Philip.

[Kiwimac]

My local dealer, who lifted a not insignificant sum off me today for two lenses, has an original Steel Rim which is more than a 50 Apo. Unfortunately it’s got goggles so a bit clunky and an M11 doesn’t need them. 

[pippy]

20 minutes ago, Al Brown said:

The......Leica M ones show the CA and flaws....

You say that as if it were a bad thing!......😸......

Consider; the original 35mm Summilux is hardly free of optical flaws yet despite displaying rather terrible(*) aberrations wide-open it remains one of the most popular of Leitz' lens offerings ever made. I think "CA and Flaws" are, henceforth, going to be described as 'Character'......

Not knowing how the original renders it's difficult to know whether LLL has done justice to the S21 or not.

There are (at least) a couple of different ways to assess the Z21. The first would be to consider its output in direct comparison with the S21 and, if similarity in performance is a neccessary requirement, decide whether the Z21 does the job well-enough to be tempting. The second would be simply to decide whether one likes how it renders regardless of how it might stack up when compared with results obtained from an original.

As it is highly unlikely that the majority of LLL customers will have an S21 to hand it is probable that the second criterium will hold paramount significance.

I have absolutely no interest whatsoever in how the lens might perform on a Hasselblad but, of course, I'm sure others will have a contrary view on that matter.

Philip.

* Define 'Terrible'...

[Ecar]

I'm a bit in a rush, but here are my first observations:
- good cosmetic job at replicating the last version of the S21 (the boxy knurling of the silver rings is very distinctive)
- hard to judge IQ vs the original without being able to play with the raw files, but it seems reasonably close in the examples shown (although I have no experience with the Blad either)
- wide open flaws and CA are indeed a 'feature' - after all, it's intended to replicate a very fast lens from the early 50s...
- at this price, I doubt there's much brass in the replica (happy to be corrected though) - although TBH it seems like not all originals were built similarly, depending on which mount version you look at
- the price seems in fact 'too good to be true' for what is going to be a custom low-volume series, perhaps due at least in part to construction shortcuts (glue in lieu of screws...?) and/or superficial QC
- I won't be getting one as I already have the original, but I hope it turns out to be better built than I think it will be so that more fellow photographers can play with its 'vintage look'.

[pippy]

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51 minutes ago, Ecar said:

I'm a bit in a rush, but here are my first observations:
- good cosmetic job at replicating the last version of the S21 (the boxy knurling of the silver rings is very distinctive)
- hard to judge IQ vs the original without being able to play with the raw files, but it seems reasonably close in the examples shown (although I have no experience with the Blad either)
- wide open flaws and CA are indeed a 'feature' - after all, it's intended to replicate a very fast lens from the early 50s...
- at this price, I doubt there's much brass in the replica (happy to be corrected though) - although TBH it seems like not all originals were built similarly, depending on which mount version you look at
- the price seems in fact 'too good to be true' for what is going to be a custom low-volume series, perhaps due at least in part to construction shortcuts (glue in lieu of screws...?) and/or superficial QC
- I won't be getting one as I already have the original, but I hope it turns out to be better built than I think it will be so that more fellow photographers can play with its 'vintage look'.

Thanks for taking the time to offer-up the above observations. Interesting stuff; especially your initial impression that the rendering might be somewhere near the original's ballpark.

A litttle bit more on the build-quality? According to specs contained within two of the e-mails I have received from LLL they mention "Lens Body is made from Aluminum" and "Lightweight aluminum alloy body construction". No surprises there.

I have, however, also seen the following photograph which seems to indicate that at least some of the internals are machined from brass;

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

 

As far as pricing here in the UK is concerned in their latest mail the sum quoted is £835.00 which seems to be very reasonable indeed for something which is very likely to be, in salesman's terms, a low-volume offering.

In the blurb accompanying the sales-pitch the body-copy taks about;

"A newly developed rangefinder focusing mechanism allows for tighter tolerances and more accurate focusing."

...and...

"Each lens is handcrafted and assembled in limited quantities, with utmost quality control and tolerance."

Obviously we will have to wait until reports from 'real people' start to come in but it would be nice to think that the Z21 might live up to the spiel. After all; it's hardly in direct competition with anything Leica are producing at the moment.

Philip.

Edited May 21 by pippy

[Ecar]

1 hour ago, pippy said:

Thanks for taking the time to offer-up the above observations. Interesting stuff; especially your initial impression that the rendering might be somewhere near the original's ballpark.

A litttle bit more on the build-quality? According to specs contained within two of the e-mails I have received from LLL they mention "Lens Body is made from Aluminum" and "Lightweight aluminum alloy body construction". No surprises there.

I have, however, also seen the following photograph which seems to indicate that at least some of the internals are machined from brass;

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

 

As far as pricing here in the UK is concerned in their latest mail the sum quoted is £835.00 which seems to be very reasonable indeed for something which is very likely to be, in salesman's terms, a low-volume offering.

In the blurb accompanying the sales-pitch the body-copy taks about;

"A newly developed rangefinder focusing mechanism allows for tighter tolerances and more accurate focusing."

...and...

"Each lens is handcrafted and assembled in limited quantities, with utmost quality control and tolerance."

Obviously we will have to wait until reports from 'real people' start to come in but it would be nice to think that the Z21 might live up to the spiel. After all; it's hardly in direct competition with anything Leica are producing at the moment.

Philip.

You are welcome, Philip.
Hopefully, the soft-and-diffuse-yet-sharp wide open rendering of the original will be retained. If you can get a few dngs from LLL, I'm happy to send you some taken with the original for comparison.
FWIW, some aluminium alloys can also look yellowish. I don't know what materials LLL used, but at this price point, something's gotta give. Also, while I'm old school and like the weight and feeling of brass, modern aluminium helicoids are perfectly usable and will outlast all of us provided they are properly lubricated.
Unless I'm mistaken, the blurb regarding tighter tolerances, faultless QC, etc. is the usual propaganda we have already read from LLL and its siblings. As you say, the proof of the pudding...
TBH, rather than just "replicating the past", I'd like LLL to come up with innovative designs and a step up in quality at affordable prices - which I'm pretty sure they are capable of. For modern RF glass, this space is currently (and successfully) occupied by Cosina. But since LLL have reverse-engineered the imaging characteristics of some vintage lenses, how about a 35mm or 40mm Speed Panchro that covers FF? or a fast 35mm Angénieux? etc. The list is potentially limitless. But with grub screws, please, not glue.

[Elliot Harper]

Did I miss something, LLL said it’s glued inside instead of screws?

I’m not buying this thing anyway. It’s too ugly to accompany any of my M bodies 

[ymc226]

I'm actually interested in this lens for the "flaws" and hopefully it get me back to using my Leica digital cameras.  Using the XD2 and 907x 100c is more fun and rewarding for me currently.   Being in the USA, I'll go through my local dealer. 

[pippy]

4 hours ago, Ecar said:

...Hopefully, the soft-and-diffuse-yet-sharp wide open rendering of the original will be retained. If you can get a few dngs from LLL, I'm happy to send you some taken with the original for comparison.
FWIW, some aluminium alloys can also look yellowish. I don't know what materials LLL used, but at this price point, something's gotta give. Also, while I'm old school and like the weight and feeling of brass, modern aluminium helicoids are perfectly usable and will outlast all of us provided they are properly lubricated.
Unless I'm mistaken, the blurb regarding tighter tolerances, faultless QC, etc. is the usual propaganda we have already read from LLL and its siblings. As you say, the proof of the pudding...
TBH, rather than just "replicating the past", I'd like LLL to come up with innovative designs and a step up in quality at affordable prices - which I'm pretty sure they are capable of. For modern RF glass, this space is currently (and successfully) occupied by Cosina. But since LLL have reverse-engineered the imaging characteristics of some vintage lenses, how about a 35mm or 40mm Speed Panchro that covers FF? or a fast 35mm Angénieux? etc. The list is potentially limitless. But with grub screws, please, not glue.

Again, Enrico, thank you very much for sharing your impressions.

To contradict a great deal (pretty much all?...😸...) of what I have discussed with you regarding acquiring 50mm lenses there is just something about this one which really does appeal to me for reasons I don't quite understand. I must need my head examined...

Having worked in the Advertising Industry (but not for many many years thank goodness) for a decade or so it's fair to say that I'm fairly familiar with the tricks of the trade so all talk about 'tolerances / QC' and so on are up there in the ether mixing it with the Pixie Dust until proven otherwise.

LLL coming up with a design all their own? It could happen. I suppose they might want to be 100% sure that they would have an established market for any such proposal before they commit to such an enterprise.

And yes; grub screws, please, not glue...

Philip.

[hdmesa]

I thought I read they stopped using glue recently.

Never had an issue with my LLL lenses, but maybe one day they will spontaneously disassemble themselves for me to see what's up.

[pippy]

5 hours ago, hdmesa said:

...Never had an issue with my LLL lenses, but maybe one day they will spontaneously disassemble themselves for me to see what's up.

Like you, hdmesa, I have never had any problem with my '8-Element' and it has seen a lot of use since I acquired the lens back in January 2022.

There is no doubt that Al Brown had a terrible experience with theirs but, having just had a cursory google, complaints about QC of recently-released LLL products on the www are few and far between. Fred Miranda's site aslo suggests that things have tightened up a bit over the last couple of years so perhaps Mr. Zhou had identified areas where QC could have been improved?

Philip.

[Ecar]

My only LLL lens is the Elcan 50/2 replica. I have used it very little (not a fan of its rendering), but never had problems other than requiring a minor focus calibration adjustment.
However, both a very reputable technician (who had actually opened several LLL lenses, mostly to deal with focus issues) and a European retailer confirmed that the assembly of LLL lenses involved the use of adhesive to varying degrees. Similarly, it would appear that the greases applied could vary from one copy to another. 
FWIW, I was also told that their (and others') way of dealing with QC was to sell the sub-standard items on the local (Chinese) market at significantly discounted prices and that it's very likely that some of these lenses found their way to other countries. Of course, although I fully trust my source, this is only hearsay and I have no way of fact-checking it. 
In all fairness, this was a couple of years ago and LLL might indeed have made amends since.

[TheBestSLIsALeicaflex]

I've actually been really impressed with the five I own.  They seem high quality; in many respects better built than the Leica glass I own or owned in the past.  Just my experience, not based on hearsay from  others, and I've never opened them up.  Never had a reason to.  I would be surprised if they were way much different from the old glass they copied since they were reverse engineered in detail, but who knows.  We're lucky to have someone offering so many character lenses at affordable prices.  

[Simone_DF]

On 5/21/2025 at 6:37 PM, Ecar said:

how about a 35mm or 40mm Speed Panchro that covers FF? 

I remember reading they were interested in a 75mm SP

[Ecar]

2 minutes ago, Simone_DF said:

I remember reading they were interested in a 75mm SP

Yes, I think I have seen that too. But the original Cooke 75mm SP can be converted and easily covers FF, so that would be another replica, nothing truly innovative. On the other hand, vintage cine SPs with focal lengths shorter than 50mm do not cover FF, which is why extending their coverage while retaining the same imaging characteristics would be attractive (to me at least...).

[mdg1371]

On 5/21/2025 at 7:58 AM, Kiwimac said:

My local dealer, who lifted a not insignificant sum off me today for two lenses, has an original Steel Rim which is more than a 50 Apo. Unfortunately it’s got goggles so a bit clunky and an M11 doesn’t need them. 

I much prefer the goggled (M3) version, focuses down to .65m- much more usable.

[Milan_S]

D I A M O N D 💎 L I F E

Miss Fay Loren, the kind of dame who could spend an entire day on nothing but champagne, oysters, and the occasional glance in the mirror.

Shot with the Leica M11 Monochrom Light Lens Lab Z21 50mm f/1.5
💡 by Harlowe 
📸 by #milanswolfs

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