Found a late wartime factory coated Leitz Elmar f=5cm 1:3,5

[SpotmaticSP]

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This weekend I won an auction. And I got a nice Leica IIIc sharkskin from 1949. Of course, such things happen all the time. Leica IIIc's are abundant. The camera itself is not interesting in any way. But I noticed this engraving on the 5cm Elmar: W.H.

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This was not mentioned anywhere in the description. Now I am no Leica expert (this is only my third Leica...) but as a longtime photographica collector and user I have some drawers in my head for interesting facts. So I immediately knew what it meant... Wehrmacht Heer.

As we can see, its serial number is 584102. And the front element appears to be coated.

I know, internet is filled with the craziest WWII Leica fakes which are easy for me to spot. But in this case in the description nothing was mentioned or implied, I only saw it with my own eyes. Surely this could be the real deal?

With only a week remaining until the end of the auction I did everything I could to find out more. I searched this forum and other forums. I asked Jerzy for his help, as he was the person who serviced my Leica II recently. He mentioned that this serial number was not in the Cane list, but some serials just before and just after were mentioned (584099 and 584104, I think). With still some days to go I decided to ask the Leitz archive and fortunately they responded quickly.

Here we can see that the Elmar with no. 584102 was probably shipped on the same day as no. 584103. Because of the checkmarks to the right of the serials, and the handwriting is the same. The B in the column "Bezeichnung der Objektive", I have learned on this forum, must mean "Belag" (Belagerung, coated). And it was delivered on the 5th december, 1944 to Bln (Berlin), order number 13097.

I already heard from Jerzy that 584104 is on the Cane list, for very obvious reasons (which can be seen in the above scan): it was delivered to the Luftwaffe on the 2nd of march, 1943). Easy to spot.

Now, I'd love to hear more about my particular Elmar with no. 584102. Was it delivered together with a grey IIIc K for example? In december 1944 the fall of Berlin was only a few months away. What could have happened with this lens during that time? So many questions which will probably never be answered.

As I already explained I'm not a diehard Leica collector. So I do not have an extensive library of Leica books (in fact I sold my Leica books some 25 years ago). But maybe someone here can tell me a bit more about its context, given that this lens was factory coated, and delivered to Berlin at the end of 1944. I did notice that the lenses in the above list were not shipped in chronological order. Did they just grab an Elmar from a box filled with Elmars, and they sent it out after registration? Were Leica shipments rare, in the closing months of the war?

Thanks for your help! I certainly love even the smallest bit of extra info.

 

Edited February 17 by SpotmaticSP

[alan mcfall]

There are Leica researchers that specalize in military items. A good place to start is Lagers book: Wehrmacht Leica  (2006) or maybe the Luiga Cane book which I do not have.  The information that you have from the factory records is quite good and provides a lot of information for you.

In general, my comments are:

-the Luftwaffen cameras are much more systematic with specific shipment dates and order numbers. Production was fairly extensive. As Lager states, "Heer" is only mentioned in isolated cases" in the records.

-Kriegsmarine and army (Heer) camera information is limited, but again see the work of those that have accessed the archive records.

-There are IIIa and IIIb Heer cameras, but the bulk are IIIc.  It seems the earlier, 1939-1942, cameras (and Lenses) are marked "Heer". Serial numbers for cameras seem fairly scattered, with a highly populated group at 379450-379999.  Most of the Heer marked cameras are chrome with only a few grey known. The most populated Heer marked lenses are at 553xxx-563xxx.

The number of Heer marked Summitar lenses observed far exceeds the number of similar Elmar lenses. Perhaps the military wanted the latest/fastest lenses.

The W.H. marked cameras and lenses are generally from a later time, typically 1943 to 1945.  The W. H. cameras are grouped at serials  391423-391699 and appear to be a continous batch, perhaps a single order, all grey.

If, Leitz changed the engraving for army cameras from Heer  to W.H. close to the end of the war, one would expect the W.H.cameras to also have had W.H. lenses. But so few W.H. lenses have been spotted that it is not clear. At least to me, again, maybe the experts can advise us.

The time period of your lenses certainly puts it in the 1944 later camera/lens deliveries, and makes sense. Lager shows the W.H. camera deliveries (mid 1943 to late 1945) and many are LOOPN which is Elmar.  Nearly all deliveries of W. H. cameras are to Berlin or US armee.

I have 5 Heer chrome cameras, all with Summitar Heer lenses, and 135 Elmar Heer lenses. I have 3  W.H. grey cameras, but no W.H. lenses.  My camera 391681 was delivered (8/4/45) as a LOOKX so it should have had a Summitar lenses.  But a few of the W. H. cameras were delivered after the war ended, to the US Army and the W.H. stamp was often not on these cameras.

Your lens would be a great match on any of the W.H. engraved cameras.

 

Edited February 18 by alan mcfall
more text

[PhotoCruiser]

vor 14 Stunden schrieb SpotmaticSP:

The B in the column "Bezeichnung der Objektive", I have learned on this forum, must mean "Belag" (Belagerung, coated).

I would expect that B means Beschichtet (coated) and not Belag (surface), Belag is mostly a much thicker kind of Beschichtung, road surface/pavement for example. Others are food on a Sandwich or cakes (topping) and Belag is the outmost layer of something covering something else.

Chris

 

 

[jerzy]

back at home I checked Cane list, it has pages sorted by order number as well, order 13097 is not listed there. As a matter of fact, from the delivery records shown above only two Luftwaffe orders are listed, 9439 and 9478, all other are not mentioned. 

[SpotmaticSP]

5 hours ago, alan mcfall said:

There are Leica researchers that specalize in military items. A good place to start is Lagers book: Wehrmacht Leica  (2006) or maybe the Luiga Cane book which I do not have.  The information that you have from the factory records is quite good and provides a lot of information for you.

In general, my comments are:

-the Luftwaffen cameras are much more systematic with specific shipment dates and order numbers. Production was fairly extensive. As Lager states, "Heer" is only mentioned in isolated cases" in the records.

-Kriegsmarine and army (Heer) camera information is limited, but again see the work of those that have accessed the archive records.

-There are IIIa and IIIb Heer cameras, but the bulk are IIIc.  It seems the earlier, 1939-1942, cameras (and Lenses) are marked "Heer". Serial numbers for cameras seem fairly scattered, with a highly populated group at 379450-379999.  Most of the Heer marked cameras are chrome with only a few grey known. The most populated Heer marked lenses are at 553xxx-563xxx.

The number of Heer marked Summitar lenses observed far exceeds the number of similar Elmar lenses. Perhaps the military wanted the latest/fastest lenses.

The W.H. marked cameras and lenses are generally from a later time, typically 1943 to 1945.  The W. H. cameras are grouped at serials  391423-391699 and appear to be a continous batch, perhaps a single order, all grey.

If, Leitz changed the engraving for army cameras from Heer  to W.H. close to the end of the war, one would expect the W.H.cameras to also have had W.H. lenses. But so few W.H. lenses have been spotted that it is not clear. At least to me, again, maybe the experts can advise us.

The time period of your lenses certainly puts it in the 1944 later camera/lens deliveries, and makes sense. Lager shows the W.H. camera deliveries (mid 1943 to late 1945) and many are LOOPN which is Elmar.  Nearly all deliveries of W. H. cameras are to Berlin or US armee.

I have 5 Heer chrome cameras, all with Summitar Heer lenses, and 135 Elmar Heer lenses. I have 3  W.H. grey cameras, but no W.H. lenses.  My camera 391681 was delivered (8/4/45) as a LOOKX so it should have had a Summitar lenses.  But a few of the W. H. cameras were delivered after the war ended, to the US Army and the W.H. stamp was often not on these cameras.

Your lens would be a great match on any of the W.H. engraved cameras.

 

Thanks for the long reply Alan! Much appreciated. Today I learned a lot. It seems that the books you have mentioned are good choices to add to my library. If I get the chance to find them.

[SpotmaticSP]

53 minutes ago, PhotoCruiser said:

I would expect that B means Beschichtet (coated) and not Belag (surface), Belag is mostly a much thicker kind of Beschichtung, road surface/pavement for example. Others are food on a Sandwich or cakes (topping) and Belag is the outmost layer of something covering something else.

Chris

 

 

Good point. But... will we ever know the exact designation? I thought "Belag" was mentioned for a reason?

[SpotmaticSP]

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47 minutes ago, jerzy said:

back at home I checked Cane list, it has pages sorted by order number as well, order 13097 is not listed there. As a matter of fact, from the delivery records shown above only two Luftwaffe orders are listed, 9439 and 9478, all other are not mentioned. 

Welcome back Jerzy! Hope all is still going well!

I get the impression that Dr. Cane only mentioned records of which he was 100% sure? Of course, the "Lüftw" is easy to find and register.

[PhotoCruiser]

vor 9 Minuten schrieb SpotmaticSP:

Good point. But... will we ever know the exact designation? I thought "Belag" was mentioned for a reason?

As i explained, Belag is nowadays the wrong word for a coating, same as topping and coating in English is the wrong word for a coating.
It may be that back then it was called Belag, however i doubt that and my first guess is that it was once wrongly translated by a non german speaking person.
Only a Leica employee who worked then with the lenses will know if the called them 

Chris

[SpotmaticSP]

Now that I have it in my possession, here are a few extra pictures. A pretty normal Elmar, apart from the W.H. engraving and the coating of course.

I also saw the "rainbow coating" defect on other samples on grey K cameras which were sold on Leitz Auction.

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Edited February 18 by SpotmaticSP

[Giuliobigazzi]

I wonder what the ‘v’ next the serial number is on the delivery book? I’ve seen similar serials to yours delivered in early 1944, I wouldn’t assume it’s the same delivery as the luftw. one

[SpotmaticSP]

10 hours ago, Giuliobigazzi said:

I wonder what the ‘v’ next the serial number is on the delivery book? I’ve seen similar serials to yours delivered in early 1944, I wouldn’t assume it’s the same delivery as the luftw. one

I could mean literally anything. I still find it interesting that lenses were not delivered in a certain order, so I guess they had boxes full of existing Elmars (all serials mixed), and just picked one when it was ordered from Berlin.